tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post95636570542780439..comments2024-03-28T06:42:51.946-06:00Comments on Moneyless World - Free World - Priceless World: How to Become Free From DebtSuelohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comBlogger118125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-36848837377307558202010-10-19T09:08:46.976-06:002010-10-19T09:08:46.976-06:00People documenting their lives likes Suelo, Roy, M...People documenting their lives likes Suelo, Roy, Me, Little House and Ben are examples of people trying to show how it's applied rather than wandering circles in a philosophical ether.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13266757685674405297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-81174688797024867502010-10-19T09:05:29.574-06:002010-10-19T09:05:29.574-06:00Little House, you have not hijacked the blog. In f...Little House, you have not hijacked the blog. In fact, you're exactly what this blog needs, more people who have documented their lives. By doing so you've shown the courage to give practical, real-life examples of how progressive ideas can be lived.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13266757685674405297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-27661182034865777212010-10-16T16:36:17.592-06:002010-10-16T16:36:17.592-06:00Suelo, you could take the following (free) tests t...Suelo, you could take the following (free) tests to determine your political orientation:<br /><br /><br />World's Smallest Political Quiz<br /><br />http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz<br /><br /><br />Or this one:<br /><br />http://www.politicalcompass.org/Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-69355386637520982102010-10-16T15:48:05.217-06:002010-10-16T15:48:05.217-06:00Yes, I think this spontaneous order (uncontrolled ...Yes, I think this spontaneous order (uncontrolled "free market" idea) is where some folks have told me I sounded like an Ayn Randian or Republican or Libertarian. But I'm saying they don't go far enough, because the very nature of money itself is control, lack of faith in the "free market" of all of nature, the Self-Ordering principle that Chaos and Complexity theorists have been discovering. Funny thing is, you don't have to know all that jargon or theories for it to work. It just does.Suelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-51835514301285964352010-10-16T15:05:23.872-06:002010-10-16T15:05:23.872-06:00Yes, that's how the open economic markets work...Yes, that's how the open economic markets work!.<br /><br />Spontaneous order!<br /><br />This doesn't happen in centralized economies...Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-86109579072634713392010-10-16T14:34:31.159-06:002010-10-16T14:34:31.159-06:00How do the complex structures in nature work and o...How do the complex structures in nature work and organize themselves, without any overseers or rulers? Is the infinite universe outside our teeny tiny system a naive dream some idealist conjured up? The secret isn't figuring out "how?" but to stop asking "how?"Suelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-89661945715843496272010-10-15T21:19:41.509-06:002010-10-15T21:19:41.509-06:00suelo: "My idealist side envisions us moving ...suelo: "My idealist side envisions us moving beyond all money."<br /><br />how? the problem becomes how do you determine how much of each product to produce, without knowing how much people what which products? eg, how much of societies resources should be devoted to building washing machines, vs how much devoted to rock music, vs how much to opera and ballet, vs how much to building houses? and how much steel should be made, and what quality? how many people should train to be electrical engineers and how many nurses?<br /><br />the austrian economists showed that in a socialist economy, they'd have great difficulty being efficient, without having some sort of pricing mechanism to adjust the system with. they predicted these problems in the 1920's-1930's, long before the soviet union ultimately collapsed, for many of the reasons they predicted. i'd say there predictive power gives a strong justification for at least attempting to understand what they were talking about.<br /><br />--------------------<br />see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School#Economic_calculation_problem<br />or<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_calculation_problem<br /><br />The economic calculation problem is a criticism of central economic planning. It was first proposed by Ludwig von Mises in 1920 and later expounded by Friedrich Hayek.[1][2] The problem referred to is that of how to distribute resources rationally in an economy. The free market solution is the price mechanism, wherein people individually have the ability to decide how a good or service should be distributed based on their willingness to give money for it. The price conveys embedded information about the abundance of resources as well as their desirability which in turn allows, on the basis of individual consensual decisions, corrections that prevent shortages and surpluses; Mises and Hayek argued that this is the only possible solution, and without the information provided by market prices socialism lacks a method to rationally allocate resources. <br />----------<br /><br />and that assumes that the people making all the centralized decisions were not corrupt and greedy themselves. ie, who watches the watchers? who polices the police? again, as the soviet union demonstrated, the elites had special shops they could shop in, where the average people weren't allowed to shop.<br /><br />of course, our own current system has been corrupted as well, with the elites getting special privileges that others do not get. to me, *that* is the problem, not a free market itself. <br /><br />unfortunately, since so few people seem to understand that, we're likely to give up even more control to some set of elites (even if it's a new set of elites) to make decisions for us. with all the endemic corruption that entails.<br /><br />--sglAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-40161516352919681732010-10-15T17:43:11.028-06:002010-10-15T17:43:11.028-06:00This site should be called "The Bitch and Moa...This site should be called "The Bitch and Moan" society!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-63488939729747624492010-10-15T16:09:54.672-06:002010-10-15T16:09:54.672-06:00Would you believe it, if I could prove that this s...Would you believe it, if I could prove that this site is a hoax?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-62676860891540769512010-10-15T15:40:54.508-06:002010-10-15T15:40:54.508-06:00Suelo, I've read some of her articles and seen...Suelo, I've read some of her articles and seen some of her interviews and it was very disturbing to say the least. Still, I need to further my education about her ideas before judging her too harshly. Otherwise, it only makes me out to look a fool. <br /><br /> I have no qualms with civilization and technology BUT not at the expense of people's suffering. I just wish more people had a warmer heart in regards to the well being of others. The world would certainly be a better place if that was the case.Ben https://www.blogger.com/profile/03800165034255683953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-41861212060466329902010-10-15T15:25:23.562-06:002010-10-15T15:25:23.562-06:00I agree with you, Ben, about Rand. I've read ...I agree with you, Ben, about Rand. I've read some of her stuff & seen a couple interviews & thought her heart was pretty rock-hard & cold. But I still need to know more about her before critiquing her further. We really do need more compassion more than we need more ideas. I would sacrifice all of civilization for a little more compassion.Suelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-53790577210823857432010-10-15T15:23:49.367-06:002010-10-15T15:23:49.367-06:00Ben, point taken.Ben, point taken.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-72405538570797114982010-10-15T15:10:29.373-06:002010-10-15T15:10:29.373-06:00"You reap what you sow." - Anonymous
..."You reap what you sow." - Anonymous<br /><br /> It seems the oligarchs are above this karmic law.Ben https://www.blogger.com/profile/03800165034255683953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-89273868305901337312010-10-15T15:01:22.492-06:002010-10-15T15:01:22.492-06:00In any day and age!In any day and age!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-10570257663952166442010-10-15T14:55:51.156-06:002010-10-15T14:55:51.156-06:00You reap what you sow.You reap what you sow.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-57995113057263036942010-10-15T14:25:05.919-06:002010-10-15T14:25:05.919-06:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ben https://www.blogger.com/profile/03800165034255683953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-1982097975532042552010-10-15T14:24:05.428-06:002010-10-15T14:24:05.428-06:00"The phantom of contrariness and contradictio..."The phantom of contrariness and contradiction feeds on argument and loves to get your goat. If folks want the phantom to continue and like going in circles, keep arguing with it." - Suelo<br /><br /> Ain't that the truth?! lol<br /><br /> "We shouldn't judge her (Ayn Rand) by the actions of her "followers," (who are reeking havoc on the world) in the same way we shouldn't judge Jesus by his havoc-reeking "followers." - Suelo<br /><br /> While I agree to a large extent I still find her views to be based on materialism and exploitation of the earth's resources while also lacking compassion for the less fortunate. That's not the sort of system we need in place. Still, I need to read more on her philosophies so I too can be a better critic of her. <br /><br />"In 1952 my dad bought a leaf rake at the hardware store for $5.00, he still has it over 50 years later. I can still buy a China made leaf rake for $5.00, but it would not make it til spring. This is just one of the reasons people can't save like they used to. We pull the plow and the scammers line up to pick our pockets, and we come back for more of their crap.<br />Not all of us can do what Daniel does, but we can all quit buying the crap they are selling."<br /><br /> That's a very good point. It cost more to live nowadays. Even the poorest of the poor back then could afford the luxury of a stay-at-home wife, children,a small home,spending and savings money. Not anymore. That's what these "compassionate" conservatives "fail" to realize. They're under the illusion that anyone can find a job and afford to live the way people did 50 years ago. They're sadly mistaken. With all that said - for those of us who are not burdened with the obligations of family and etc if we're willing to take the plunge as Daniel and Roy did we just might find that while it has it's challenges it also has it's benefits.Ben https://www.blogger.com/profile/03800165034255683953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-45988889288648216072010-10-15T10:09:58.609-06:002010-10-15T10:09:58.609-06:00Good points, Suelo. I want to apologize for arguin...Good points, Suelo. I want to apologize for arguing so much with Miguel. I'm sure he'll continue to make his comments regardless of whether I comment on his, but I do tend to add fuel to the fire. Like I said before, I don't mind debates, but I do mind them when the goal posts shift to suit a counterargument.jessenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-78759503078081596072010-10-15T08:58:44.505-06:002010-10-15T08:58:44.505-06:00sgl, thanks. It's nice to get a challenging co...sgl, thanks. It's nice to get a challenging comment that's not reactionary & irrational. I should learn more of Rand's philosophy if I'm going to be her critic. But, to quote my essay above, "If money today were just, it indeed would be as Ayn Rand describes it." Perhaps she described money in a more ideal world, but not today's money. I believe the very nature of interest banking, even if we begin using the gold standard, inevitably evolves into unjust money. Money mis-represented goods in ancient times, too, though not to the degree as it does today. Gold didn't make us any less insane, as Columbus, Cortez, & their riff-raff showed. My idealist side envisions us moving beyond all money. Meanwhile, we must make concessions while money is still in the world & those who use it must use it justly; maybe Rand describes how to do that. I admit I don't know enough of her philosophy to know this for sure. We shouldn't judge her by the actions of her "followers," (who are reeking havoc on the world) in the same way we shouldn't judge Jesus by his havoc-reeking "followers."Suelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-56503563330526504902010-10-15T08:35:26.281-06:002010-10-15T08:35:26.281-06:00We are being gamed by the banks, no doubt. Also, n...We are being gamed by the banks, no doubt. Also, nowadays, we constantly have to re-buy everything because nothing lasts very long.<br /> In 1952 my dad bought a leaf rake at the hardware store for $5.00, he still has it over 50 years later. I can still buy a China made leaf rake for $5.00, but it would not make it til spring. This is just one of the reasons people can't save like they used to. We pull the plow and the scammers line up to pick our pockets, and we come back for more of their crap. <br /> Not all of us can do what Daniel does, but we can all quit buying the crap they are selling.Uncle Crackernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-46908004983226165572010-10-15T00:17:47.035-06:002010-10-15T00:17:47.035-06:00you've properly seen thru the fiat money syste...you've properly seen thru the fiat money system, but i'm afraid you've confused the current world system as being a capitalist system and one ayn rand would agree with. however, once gold is replaced by fiat money, the same system morphs into a completely different system, with different results.<br /><br />in fact, ayn rand was very much opposed to fiat money, and stridently in favor of gold as money. more gold cannot just be printed up like fiat money can, and hence a bank loan would not be "fictional" money, but would represent the real savings (the foregone consumption) of other people, as mediated via the banks, to be invested in more efficient production, with the interest paid out of the increased efficiency. consumer loans don't make much sense in such a system.<br /><br />unfortunately, ayn rand's disciple, alan greenspan, became federal reserve chairman, and apparently forgot everything. or perhaps all he learned from ayn rand was not her philosophy, but how to run a personality cult. or else he intentionally rigged the system to collapse. <br /><br />--sglAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-6236547937950213182010-10-14T22:07:07.172-06:002010-10-14T22:07:07.172-06:00The phantom of contrariness and contradiction feed...The phantom of contrariness and contradiction feeds on argument and loves to get your goat. If folks want the phantom to continue and like going in circles, keep arguing with it.Suelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-56496076144313543202010-10-14T20:08:47.805-06:002010-10-14T20:08:47.805-06:00Stupid is, as stupid does.Stupid is, as stupid does.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-49744441860583570342010-10-14T19:13:57.906-06:002010-10-14T19:13:57.906-06:00*personal attacks**personal attacks*Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-13695391256684986142010-10-14T19:08:05.948-06:002010-10-14T19:08:05.948-06:00A funny thing is that I tend to take a leftist sta...A funny thing is that I tend to take a leftist stance when discussing with right wingers and I am called all sorts of names, like hippie, terrorist... <br /><br />I am sorry to say the same lack of critical thinking is far too obvious with them as it is with you. Simplistic thinking, labeling, attacks, etc...<br /><br />It seems people just can't consider different points of views to their own. Sad but true.Miguelnoreply@blogger.com