tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post3480298000517940822..comments2024-03-28T13:36:17.137-06:00Comments on Moneyless World - Free World - Priceless World: Decade DentsSuelohttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-19960301938776340482010-02-21T22:19:07.853-07:002010-02-21T22:19:07.853-07:00Hey Suelo, It's Jose. Nice to see that you hav...Hey Suelo, It's Jose. Nice to see that you have so many readers. Just saying hi and glad to see you're still going strong at it. Hope to hang out sometime again and talk stories.J.Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00136209866612786141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-37953021090125799322010-02-17T13:54:37.430-07:002010-02-17T13:54:37.430-07:00I read Love and Possessions - Sex and Money,
and ...I read Love and Possessions - Sex and Money,<br /><br />and the thought that came to mind is from the book, "The Cloud of Unknowing."<br /><br />"God can not be grasped, except through love."<br /><br />JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-35360748229289187182010-02-01T15:43:20.457-07:002010-02-01T15:43:20.457-07:00If humans achieve biological immortality, we could...If humans achieve biological immortality, we could make a big roman circus were people compete as gladiators, with bets and all, to allow removal of older members of a species. <br /><br />Or we could move beyond our little planet, and conquer the stars. <br /><br />So many posibilities.Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-37637787860942118142010-01-31T19:48:14.838-07:002010-01-31T19:48:14.838-07:00To clarify my point about biological immortality, ...To clarify my point about biological immortality, high mortality rates from environmental factors would reduce the need to have death programmed into an organism. If predators or other environmental factors remove members of a species from an ecosystem at a high enough rate, that will allow older members of a species to get out of the way of their offspring.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03381178424133792230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-61705703186569189262010-01-31T19:45:05.044-07:002010-01-31T19:45:05.044-07:00A couple of points:
I followed Miguel's link ...A couple of points:<br /><br />I followed Miguel's link for the hydra and read another article about biological immortality that was linked to it:<br /><br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality<br /><br />As I understand it, biologically immortal species might not "age" in the way we do, but they have high mortality rates from other factors in their environments.<br /><br />Also, even if afflictions that affect us after we've had the chance to reproduce don't get selected out of the gene pool, nature may select us out when we are subject to those afflictions, thereby saving us from the suffering of those afflictions.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03381178424133792230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-59057282035072338112010-01-31T10:00:25.081-07:002010-01-31T10:00:25.081-07:00I just found your site, so I apologize if this is ...I just found your site, so I apologize if this is a redundant question, but have you seen Douglas Rushkoff's book, "Life, Inc."?<br /><br />Keep up the inspiring work!Nature Creek Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11628016586734984351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-62314900432385215172010-01-30T13:11:15.134-07:002010-01-30T13:11:15.134-07:00I predict this discussion will end up proving that...I predict this discussion will end up proving that we need to live a simple life for a number of decades until the rest of the world hopefully get's a clue regarding overpopulation and over-consumption. <br /><br />Suelo's role as a broadcaster of the simple life will be deemed useful but people will demand more from Suelo.<br /><br />Suelo or some other "Survivor Man" type persona will post video tutorials on how to deal with specific situations when living without money and other possessions. Basically what he's doing now one-on-one with his visitor.<br /><br />He'll be using the leading edge of technological evolution to educate the masses efficiently so that our species can continue to be the leaders in information building on information.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13266757685674405297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-62253642714632976522010-01-30T12:21:46.150-07:002010-01-30T12:21:46.150-07:00Yes, I'm very interested in looking at these t...Yes, I'm very interested in looking at these things, Al & Michael, thanks. Not having read "Survival of the Sickest" yet, I wonder if her study also includes non-human, non-domesticated populations. And I wonder if something like the Alzheimers Al mentions would be selected out in a hunting-gathering tribe. Does it exist in wild creatures? These are the questions we are afraid to ask but must face.<br /><br />BTW, I see all conflicting ideas, like conflicting creatures, coming together as kinds of cockfights. Cockfights are not a bad thing, but, in fact, very necessary for natural selection. I welcome conflicting viewpoints here, even if they mean I might slink away bloody & defeated.Suelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-70158602628765241572010-01-30T08:27:36.472-07:002010-01-30T08:27:36.472-07:00Thank you Al! This is the kind of information I am...Thank you Al! This is the kind of information I am interested in. These are the kind of posts and sources that will drive this discussion forward. I look forward to reading all the links provided.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13266757685674405297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-8540295625293396912010-01-30T03:09:05.035-07:002010-01-30T03:09:05.035-07:00I'll be brief as this thread has gotten rather...I'll be brief as this thread has gotten rather long. I don't regard this exchange as some sort of cock fight, but just an honest debate that might help us make sense of the world we've created.<br />First off, I'm pleased to hear that you are willing to rethink you hypothesis when presented with conflicting evidence. If you are interested in the interplay of disease and natural selection this book <a href="http://www.survivalofthesickestthebook.com/thebook.php" rel="nofollow">Survival of the Sickest"</a> by Sharon Moalem, discussed the connection. His examples are mainly in the human population, but there is no reason to believe that it is not a natural phenomenon in other life forms.<br /><br />I don't know that I can concede your point about natural selection. I understand the notion that anything which acts on the gene pool <i>could</i> influence the evolution of a species. But that doesn't mean that <i>everything</i> does so. A more cogent example might be a disease like Alzheimer's, which only strikes older people. If it doesn't affect their ability to reproduce its unlikely to influence the genetic makeup of the progeny. For that reason it doesn't get 'selected out'.<br /><br />Finally, Michael makes an interesting point about evolution of the mind. However, this is not a novel idea. It was discussed more than half a century ago by the same Medawar I mentioned before. I recommend his essays <a href="http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Medawar/future-of-man.html" rel="nofollow">The Future of Man</a>, which distinguishes this form of evolution, called exosomatic heredity, from Darwinian (endosomatic) evolution. He makes some startling observations, which might be highly relevant to this blog. This has nothing to do with the invention of money and credit, but with the Lamarckian, that is instructive, nature of exosomatic evolution. We are simply evolving too quickly for the limited resources of the planet. Something must be done. <a href="http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Medawar/technology-and-evolution/" rel="nofollow">Medawar</a> points to the paradox - Science and technology are held responsible for our present predicament but offer the only means of escaping their consequences. <br />Would you be interested in discussing this in your next post, Suelo?Avanticorpohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561709795488239429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-17675574234730910052010-01-29T11:51:37.478-07:002010-01-29T11:51:37.478-07:00I view evolution as information building on inform...I view evolution as information building on information and that technological memory systems are an outgrowth of biological evolution. Looking at it from this perspective life forms such as the Hydra and the Turritopsis nutricula (what is that a nuclear powered turnip?) are branches on the ever-growing tree that hit a dead end. We as humans and our technology are at the forefront of information building on information and as Spider-Man once said, "With great power comes great responsibility."Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13266757685674405297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-29302546315384148092010-01-29T11:30:21.398-07:002010-01-29T11:30:21.398-07:00Check this one out too:
Turritopsis nutricula:
ht...Check this one out too:<br /><br />Turritopsis nutricula:<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turritopsis_nutricula<br /><br />Is this natural?.Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-18038869126204719922010-01-29T11:26:40.142-07:002010-01-29T11:26:40.142-07:00Suelo, you are forgetting some "natural"...Suelo, you are forgetting some "natural" life forms do not die or get old, as the Hydra.<br /><br />Hydra (genus):<br />http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_(genus)<br /><br />Hydra - Immortal Metazoan life form, Example of Immortality:<br />http://www.imminst.org/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=48&t=884<br /><br />Is nature responsible for this?.Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-15768025298692834712010-01-28T19:40:05.737-07:002010-01-28T19:40:05.737-07:00Sorry, folks, if this is turning into a male ego c...Sorry, folks, if this is turning into a male ego cock fight of science knowledge. But cock fights are also part of nature, so here goes...<br /> <br />Al, I still can't see how anything in the universe could not be part of natural selection! Natural selection chooses or wipes out entire species, too. We most likely wouldn't be here if it hadn't wiped out the dinasaurs, and definitely most life as we know it wouln't be here without the wipe-out of primordial algaes. And we might soon get wiped out, to the earth's relief. <br /><br />Same with lightning. When I was a kid, our pet dogs wouldn't go to the tops of mountains during storms, while we did, & we almost got struck! Those ancestral dogs who didn't know better got struck out, leaving the wise.<br /><br />The sickle cell thing is a good point. I had a prof who considered sickle cell a good adaptation, for that reason, but I've also had my doubts. But he also pointed out how diabetes kept the Kung Bushmen healthy & happy for thousands of years, because it is a survival mechanism to help them sustain themselves through long fasting. Such diabetes would be illness in this environ & culture, just as it has now become the Bushmen's handicap now that they got "civilization".<br /><br />Your quote sounds lofty, but it still doesn't face up to reality, why we are overpopulating ourselves to death & overconsuming to death. What is the mechanism that causes us to do that? It is natural for healthy life to have will to live & fight for life, & it is also natural for life to say, "enough", and let itself die. If it doesn't, it is a self-destructive cancer cell. Have we become cancer cells? When I was a health volunteer in the Peace Corps, I thought it barbaric that the indigenous people I worked with would do nothing to get an old woman to the hospital when she had a stroke! Against their wishes, I got her hospitalized, & the they were bitter toward me. After mulling over their "barbarism" & my own "morality" over the years, I finally understood. <br /><br />Passion is nature. If it is our passion to prolong life, as it is for redwoods, then this is what is meant to be. But if our motivation is monetary profit, guilt, & possession, then we have what we have today: intense prolonged suffering. <br /> <br />I am still curious if we can find such prolonged suffering & passing on of bad genes, including the likes of sickle-cell anemia, outside human civilization. I could be mistaken in my views. Let truth survive the natural selection of proof, even if it means I & my theories get knocked down.Suelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-89831884556345046562010-01-28T18:58:45.885-07:002010-01-28T18:58:45.885-07:00Indeed... life is about quality, not quantity. In...Indeed... life is about quality, not quantity. In my search for a high quality life, soon I will be leaving my job of 4.5 years, my home state of 29 years, and heading out of the east coast megalopolis to learn to live free without debt and without dispensable possessions. As those New Hampshirites say, "Live Free or Die." Suelo, your websites have given me some good ideas. Thank you! Maybe I'll see ya 'round.Carolynnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-41718756299200106312010-01-28T10:18:57.073-07:002010-01-28T10:18:57.073-07:00Ken, I agree. A lifespan of 30 or 40 years is more...Ken, I agree. A lifespan of 30 or 40 years is more than enough. If you want to live a long life I would say that living to your 50s is acceptable. <br /><br />Although my ideas might change in the future due to advanced technology, I think you have a good point with the emotional and mental baggage issue. <br /><br />However the physical scar tissue is going to be a non-issue with advanced genetical engineering and nanotechnology. The aging process is going to be controlled at a molecular level.Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-30750104100694677162010-01-27T21:27:58.790-07:002010-01-27T21:27:58.790-07:00I for one am very content with my estimated life e...I for one am very content with my estimated life expectancy. Having observed the aging of myself and others, I think that there is a tendency to lose mental agility and adaptability as we age (although this can be fended off through diligent mental exercises and compensated for through experience). Additionally, I know that I'm gradually emotional baggage and physical scar tissue that will be more burdensome as I age. Given these factors, I see another 30-50 years of life as about right before I'm ready to cast off all of the accumulated baggage of a lifetime and start over!Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03381178424133792230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-34697375576301212832010-01-27T20:59:08.217-07:002010-01-27T20:59:08.217-07:00Well, first of all it is not correct to say that e...Well, first of all it is not correct to say that everything is a part of natural selection. Catastrophic events can result in extinctions,which do a little more than "strengthen to gene pool". They wipe it out entirely, which is not such a nice fate if you value your species. Moreover, freakish accidents, like lightening strikes, are by their very nature stochastic and therefore fail to "select" desirable genes, unless there's a gene for resistance to electrocution. But seriously, as to your main point that natural selection aborts unnecessary suffering, this is also refutable. For instance, selection for sickle cell anemia occurs in African populations living in conditions with persistent malaria. So nature displaces the short brutish life with malaria with the longer brutish life with anemia, simply because the longer lifespan allows individuals with sickle cell to reproduce and pass on their genes.<br /><br />Finally, as to whether extending life by technological means is unnatural/unmerciful (prolongs suffering), consider the words of <a href="http://www.cscs.umich.edu/~crshalizi/Medawar/mans-estimation.html" rel="nofollow">Peter Medawar</a>, a Nobel laureate in medicine who thought deeply about natural selection...<br /><br />"I turn now to considering the prolongation of life by attempting to lengthen the lifespan or by the use of medical engineering. Because he was a deeply religious man, I think it specially significant that Francis Bacon in his <i>Valerius Terminius</i> describes the true purpose of science as the discovery of all operations and possibilities of operations from <i>immortality</i> (if it were possible) to the humblest mechanical practice. <br />Today research on the lengthening of the lifespan is looked down upon as irrelevant and antisocial--antisocial because such a procedure would compound the population problem and to some extent the problem of unemployment...<br />The fear that it is undignified to attempt to prolong life in this way will not bear examination. <i>All</i> medical treatments as humble and simple as indigestion pills and plasters such as we apply to cuts--all such treatments if they are effective at all are effective in a way which on an epidemiological scale can be measured by an increase of life expectancy, however minute it may be.<br />A more lively topic of current discussion is perhaps the use of medical engineering to try to same victims of physical or medical accidents from what would otherwise be certain death. By "medical engineering" I mean all the apparatus of intensive care, intravenous feeding, perhaps dialysis as a substitute for kidney function, blood transfusion if necessary, and the mechanical ventilation of the lungs. All this apparatus has been alleged to deprive death of its dignity: it is a "prolongation of death", the critics say rather than a prolongation of life.<br /><b>I disagree strongly with this view which is deeply unbiological: there is no more deep-seated biological instinct than that which expresses itself as the firm grasp upon life, there is more dignity, as there is more humanity, in fighting for life than in passive abdication from our most hardly won and most deeply prized possession.</b>Avanticorpohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561709795488239429noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-22968631815635652862010-01-26T16:43:32.382-07:002010-01-26T16:43:32.382-07:00Al, isn't it clear that everything is part of ...Al, isn't it clear that everything is part of natural selection and hones life to what it is today, weather death (from diseases, disasters, conflicts,whatever) to social and sexual attractions, to just chance walks into right areas? Disasterous ice ages & quakes & volcanoes also made us who survive today who we are. And disasters, as horrendous as they appear, also end prolonged suffering of many, and thus strengthen the gene pool. All chance appears indifferent, as the sunlight and rain appears indifferent, coming down on the just and the unjust without discrimination. But this "indifference" truly created and ever creates us all. What a mystery! Genesis is literally in the present tense. <br /><br />I am not going to say whether or not our money system is part of evolution or inhibiting it. I'm just pointing out the prolonged suffering coming out of our system that I don't see existing outside it. If we are happy with this prolonged suffering, then we can continue our status quo.<br /><br />Sorry, can't comment on other comments nowSuelohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13739011165937473840noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-67059279194945133862010-01-26T08:25:24.428-07:002010-01-26T08:25:24.428-07:00I found your website and blog this morning. I am ...I found your website and blog this morning. I am inspired by your gentle determination and focus.<br />The economic structure is on the brink. Listening to US senators say that in Oct 2008 if the US gov had not intervened the US ecomony would have fallen in 12 hours and the world ecomony would have followed in 24 hours has to make us consider the fact that in our life time we may all be living without money. I think the possibility in the short time may be scary but in the long time this will provide us a chance to be humane humans again. We'll have to work together.<br />I have always been fascinated with the life of Francis of Assisi. I believe he got it. <br />I'm unfortunately not there yet. I live in a house in Canada with my husband and daughter. We always have a large garden and are able to can and freeze our veggies so that we can eat them throughout the year. However there are many things that we use that rely on us paying for them, heat, water, power etc. We still buy food too. We have a long way to go to where you are. But the fact that we are thinking about options is important and I hope that many others are thinking too. We are going to need some ideas when the monetary system falls apart. Thank you for giving us food for thought!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-1547716451125330372010-01-25T08:30:49.501-07:002010-01-25T08:30:49.501-07:00I think it's a moot point to argue if Bush gav...I think it's a moot point to argue if Bush gave the right economic advice or not. It's clear people were very scared and offended to be able to understand a "Keep Shopping" advice.<br /><br />Also we can notice Bush didn't understand the feelings of Americans and offended them by recommending to forgeting about it and "Keep Shopping". So we know he did not act as a pragmatic politician.<br /><br />On the other hand if Bush had appealed to heroism, he would have been accused of being a demagogue.<br /><br />I believe Bush should have asked for patience and more trust in the goverment.Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-5552945913817544012010-01-24T19:37:26.993-07:002010-01-24T19:37:26.993-07:00"Keep shopping" might be economically pr..."Keep shopping" might be economically pragmatic advice, but it's not how we won WWI or WWII. Plus, it's only good advice in the relative short term. In order to have a sustainable economy, we need to get away from relying on continuous growth and debt.Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03381178424133792230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-84313295256695652842010-01-24T17:01:55.513-07:002010-01-24T17:01:55.513-07:00I would suggest you learn some manners before misj...I would suggest you learn some manners before misjudging the mind of another. It shows a lousy education and no dignity.Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-17998044111919763962010-01-24T16:10:45.647-07:002010-01-24T16:10:45.647-07:00Silence is the best answer.Silence is the best answer.Miguelnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-25149653.post-61920220338885530022010-01-24T14:15:07.275-07:002010-01-24T14:15:07.275-07:00Miguel,
A few days ago, a poster suggested that y...Miguel,<br /><br />A few days ago, a poster suggested that you start your own blog and go away and desist from bothering us. I second the motion! There is an abyss in cyberspace that truly needs your grand expertise of knowledge, experience and background. While Suelo's site is way over your head, I'm sure you could find your own gathering of dim followers. Such as yourself. <br /><br />I also have a question. Is your mental and intellectual handicap a result of your mother taking thalidomide while pregnant with you?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com