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Monday, August 31, 2009

Roads & Maps

Getting Hitched By Love

I
made it back to Moab a couple days ago! I hitched out of the Gila wilderness a couple weeks ago.

Funny, my first ride was from the son of one of my good friends in Moab! I had never met the son before!
My next ride was from a 40-something guy named Fred, and he took me to Alma, New Mexico (near Glenwood), and asked me to stay with him for a few days. It was grand getting to know the local cowboy folks. I even donned my cowboy garb (including those boots I had found in the Gila), listened to a lot of country music (and loved it!), and worked my ass off. Fred & I became good friends, & we were both sad when I had to leave. I hope to go back again sometime.

Another really nice 40-something guy gave me a ride all the way to Springdale, Arizona, & left me
with some Christian literature. A couple took me a short ways to a turn-off to Zuni, NM, out in the middle of nowhere. There was so little traffic I thought I'd be stuck there for days. But then a 60-something Roman Catholic priest, dressed in his backwards collar, picked me up & took me to Gallup, NM. Then I got a ride into the Navajo Reservation from a 50-something man who said he knew Ram Dass. He told me he also went many years wandering, carrying a change of clothes, sleeping bag, & a Bible, with no home base but Rainbow gatherings. A 40-something Navajo man took me all the way to Shiprock. He lived in Gallup but was going to his daughter's soccer game near Shiprock. We talked about world travels, cultures, and world religions. Really brilliant man. He said he used to be a Pentecostal, but has since expanded his vista. He gave me half his burrito. A 20-something Navajo guy then picked me up & went miles out of his way to take me to the Colorado border. He was a fire-fighter & paramedic, & told me one exciting rescue & adventure story after another. Then a 50-something Ute man brought me into Cortez, Colo, where a 40-something couple took me all the way to Dove Creek, Colo. Then, lo and behold, I got picked up within 3 minutes by a 40-something man named Jose from Paraguay, going all the way to Moab on his way to Salt Lake City! He & I hit it off really well, chatting the whole way about everything you can imagine. We even made it to Moab before dark! I haven't even made it back to the cave, yet! I found a new campsite nearer to town, where I'm parked until I get it together to head further out.

"Give Me Neither Poverty Nor Wealth"


My life feels so rich, now. Like the ric
hest man on earth. I don't always feel this way (I sometimes find myself getting pissed off or discouraged, of course) but I usually do feel rich - yes, more often than not! I can't figure out if my life is so easy or it's so hard. I don't even know the difference between easy & hard anymore. I don't even know what an ascetic is supposed to be. If I went contrary to my instinct, against my soul, for the sake of earning money, then I would definitely be a self-torturing ascetic. And if I had too much food & luxuries (addictions that abuse the body & mind) I would definitely be a self-torturing ascetic. But, also, if I did not take enough and starved myself and wore hair shirts for the sake of a hungry god of my own making, I would be a self-torturing ascetic.

Take only what you need, no more, no less, and all your desires become fulfilled - desire ceases to control you. Needs and desires become One. If everybody took only what they needed, no less, no more, then the human world would come into balance as it is in the non-human world. This is no statement of genius. It's such common sense, so very simple, it's almost absurd I have to say it. But our world has lost the most basic common sense.

That Ol' Dragon


In the last blog entry, I talked about brewing visions of the world Dragon, of banking
interest and the interest inherent in all of nature. It's still brewing, & it's exciting. But it's not ready yet.

What's intriguing about old religious stories, myths & legends, is that the theme is constant: the little conquers the big, and the little
becoming the big. The little guy and the dragon, the little guy & the giant. The little desert tribe conquering the Land of Canaan (Canaan literally means Commerce!). Canaan, full of Giants. And what life form doesn't begin as a tiny seed or zygote? Faith is the vision of the seed, the tiny becoming big, and all of nature runs on faith.

It is also natural for those who lack faith to laugh at the seed. Their laughter is also part of the fun. The Tao wouldn't be the Tao if it weren't laughed at, the Tao Te Ching states. Little do the faithless know, the genetic code of a cottonwood tree is hidden in a seed as tiny as a flea.

Finding a Roadmap in a Lost World

Some man from India just emailed me some wise words and ended up saying:

"The problem is that you are an example but not a road map. You need to provide a road map so that man kind can penetrate into animal kingdom of the market. If you have opened up a road and letting people realize being man instead of animal, you truly served the purpose of your life."

My reply (a bit revised):

"I keep getting glimpses of a road map, but it is still too incomplete to present to the public. Also, everything must happen one step at a time. First, be an example (prepare the ground), then plant the seed, if it is the divine will. There are too many road maps & advisers flooding the world, but few examples. The example must come first. Even if my example is not very good, it has to come first & develop. My example is still a child learning to walk, stumbling as I go... Like anybody learning to walk, I get laughed at, but also praised. Following a map is useless if we don't know how to walk. If it is the divine will, may the map come more clearly and may we be able to follow it, my friend."

I'm in the spotlight now, and I'd be a fool not to take advantage of this rare opportunity and totally enjoy it. I'd also be a fool letting it go to my head. If we've been given, by grace, bright peacock feathers to strut, why shun them? But also why forget they are a total gift and get arrogant about them? They will be gone someday, and our bodies will return to dust, as everything will, and a million years from now we specks of dust will all be forgotten in this infinite universe. Pray for me, to stay on the Middle Path, and to relish it.

189 comments:

  1. Interesting. I have been thinking the same thoughts. You have learned to live simply and have adquired wisdom. But you have confused the means with the ends.

    I think the most important simplicity is that of the mind, not that of exterior appearances.
    Liberating your mind from prejudice is far more important than giving your possessions to the poor. So your focus on the evils of banking and money may be wrong.

    Suelo, I think you are missing something important: A man can be wise, and it does not matter if he lives in a barrel like Diogenes or in a palace like Marcus Aurelius. (Let me be the one that lives in a palace ;) ).

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  2. Yes, Miguel simplicity of the mind is all that it's about. But if you take more than you need physically, how could it not betray a discontented, unsimplified mind? If I overeat, it betrays a discontented, unsimplified mind - an addicted mind. And if I take more than I need, others get less than they need. This is common sense we all know. You know the state of the root by the fruit. Sorry, you can only hide a rotten root under high philosophy for so long before it betrays itself to the whole world.

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  3. I am very glad that I found your blog. I read a few of the posts and was taken in by your positive view and sense of wonder and possibility. I will be spending some time reading the rest of the posts here thanks.
    James

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  4. I disagree, but I respect your point of view. In your view I can't be rich or desire to be rich, under the pretense that I will be morally inferior. I understand you and your need to feel morally superior to everyone.

    Everyone have their way of feeding their ego. Some like to feel more cultured, richer, wiser, others like to feel more saintly. Some criticize others to feel superior. In the end I respect your ego and your way of strengthening it. I hope your respect mine.

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  5. Re: Suelo's response to Miguel. Need is relative. Do you need to take library resources? Do you need to travel all over the country in other ppl's vehicles? Do you need to post this BLOG? No, not to survive. Ask that tribe you did volunteer work for in South America or whereever or ask an African Bushman. Im sure they would think your taking more than you need. On the other hand a doctor needs a hospital, equipment and medicine so he may heal more sick people such as the friend you left behind in Las Cruces. The optomotrist needs equipment and a lab to make the glasses you wear. So, basically the less you contribute, the less you need. Yes, I see, you need very little to live.

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  6. P.S. Please pardon the misspelling and the "your" where the "you are" should be. Should have proof read before clicking, sorry.

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  7. Where do you get the idea "all of nature runs on faith"? To my knowledge non-human animals don't need faith, they are devoid of most of the mental infirmities which plague homo sapiens. Homo sapiens needs to move into a cave to prove something to himself, homo sapiens needs to live in a palace to satisfy a desire within himself.

    The rest of the animal kingdom exists without faith, not needing to be shored up from the fear and pain of being responsible for its own survival.

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  8. I like your simplicity and you show to the world you could make a big difference among us..Cheers!!Have a blessed day!!

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  9. We need a spiritual guidance, and in this time and age of technology, why not from a cyber- prophet. Suelo don't be discouraged for the negative comments, keep posting your inspiring revelations, we're listening and find back the right path. God bless you, buen amigo! Ana

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  10. We already have modern masters, like Osho, Krishnamurti, Gurdjieff, René Guénon, Carlos Castaneda. I think Suelo is not capable of presenting a roadmap. Even if he could, the roadmap will never replace the road.

    The map is not the territory.

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  11. Suelo's own comment is the most negative one I see here. He was not attacked. Someone simply offered a differing viewpoint. In response Suelo implied that the person's philosophy was "rotten". Frankly, I think Suelo "betrayed" his own root by his statement. I find nothing wrong with the way he lives. I dont think it harms anyone and I believe his intentions are basically good. But, I dont care for the arrogance and hypocrisy implied by his statement. I have taken the time to read Suelo's website. I dont completely disagree with it. That said, as a whole I see that his philosophy/religion is full of contradictions, holes and at times, blatant disregard for the obvious. Thats ok, most if not all religions/philosophies are like that in some way. Whats important is that it works for him. It is also important to recognize that other people have theirs that work for them. I would think that a self described "peace loving seeker of truth" would know this. Instead, in the short time I've followed this blog I've seen an "angry person with a sense of entitlement type of entry which was deleted with apology and a snide response to a differing opinion that was at worst preachy. Not a good sign. Its these contradictory glimpses into a person's true nature that makes you wonder if he is actually a narcisistic wannabe cult leader instead of a tolerant seeker of truth.

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  12. Once on the middle path you cannot really leave it. You might think you're off it but that is just a confused dream. When we believe such things life can be gloomy. All you have to do is remember to wake up. The mind often misses suffering and tricks us so that it can revel in misery. It loves pain as much as (or maybe more than) pleasure. Old habits die hard. Deep breathing for a few minutes and you'll be right as rain. Great faith is knowing that you are not on the path, you are the path.

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  13. I think there is some incoherence between preaching moneyless living, yet striving for fame at any cost (this blog). It seems there is no shortage of hypocrisy in Daniel Suelo.

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  14. I cannot see any hypocrisy Miguel, Suelo's chosen difficult path is full of good intentions as it's coming from the heart for the wellbeing of humanity. This blog is just the medium to transmit his experience, so everybody around the world can hear a message of truth. This is a miracle, for first time in the whole history of humanity, we can be united with the same purpose to search for the real truth. Lets just listen to his message. I will, with an open heart. Suelo, take your time and don't be afraid to make mistake too, God bless! Ana

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  15. As I understand Dan's philosophy, it is the valuation of exchange which profanes it. In other words, the same way paying for sex changes the nature of the act, money changes the nature of exchange from giving/receiving into selling/buying. The question, for me, is whether this transition is entirely profane, or whether there is actually some virtue in it. Certainly the exchange that is characterized by loss/theft is further down the profane scale than sale/purchase, and there's no quantifying involved there either. To me, there is virtue as well as vice in assigning value to an object. The complex societies/technologies enabled by an economy are a mixed bag of suffering/benefit. I would argue that the benefits outweigh the problems, though we could probably do a lot better. Dan might argue the other side of the fence here. So putting that tangled issue aside, let's just look at the immediate, personal impact of valuation: Say I have some peanuts. Sally is content if I share my peanuts, but Joe will take them all and then beat me up because I don't have any more. If I assign a value to my peanuts, and sell them for 20 clicks/bag, and make both Joe and Sally pay for them, Joe is brought into civil interaction because he thinks he's being treated like everybody else. I can always show Sally I like her in ways that don't involve money. In other words, the buyer/seller exchange is depersonalized, neutral territory, and there is a place for that in all societies. I'm sure I can come up with other virtues of valuation as well. There is, to be sure, something sacred lost when one assigns a value, but there are also sacred benefits. Dan's only problem is that he keeps searching for a simple answer where there really isn't one.

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  16. Thanks, Anonymous. I really do admire Dan's effort, his search. I also think it would be a huge mistake for him to think that once he has answered the questions of his own heart that he should offer a "roadmap" for others; his way will get people to think about their own way, and that is enough. We all need to answer these questions of balance for ourselves.

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  17. Sacred benefits for who? Speakfreely, this is not what happens in the real world, what about the trading by coercion, the trading with arms(wars), what about the people that have been strip of their resources and are dying of starvation, deceases etc. as a consequences of this oppressive system, of course because they don't live in our doorsteps and the army make sure to keep them well far away, we can forget about them easily and what about the widening inequality gaps in our western model of society? We need a more fair system for all. Ana

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  18. Ana, you raise important points. But as anything in this world there are benefits and downsides. The same could be said of religion, politics, science or technology. Economy is just another dimension of human society.

    It could be argued Suelo's livestyle is the product of a perverted and insatiable ego. Also that he is full of resentment and hatred for human society and culture. But then I could rightly be acussed of being too biased. Suelo has his positive traits as well. There is not black and white in the real world, only in our imaginations.

    Suelo I am afraid to say is not perfect. Although he likes himself to believe he is infallible and he wants us to believe it as well. Any doubt could unmask his real intentions, and spoil his work. Not to mention his ego could be seriously damaged as well.

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  19. Speakfreely, I disagree. In fact Capitalism is a better alternative, as it is easily seen as inherently abusive. The benefits are harder to ponder. Giving jobs and offering products and services to society are the most clear ones, obviously there are some social or enviroment conscious businessmen that go further than that. There is no need to do civic-minded improvements to add a positive twist to it.

    Religion or socialism on the other hand make more difficult being able to see their ugly sides. But if you search enough you could be horrified at them. The same happens with Suelo's lifestyle. It may seem beautiful, but it isn't if you look beyond appearances.

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  20. Ana, I am not in any way denying that money is easily abused. In fact, I would say that the whole concept of capitalism, that is, being in business expressly to maximize profits, is inherently abusive, and ultimately serves no one. But what if the aim is to simply cover one's overhead and living expenses? Business aimed at these more modest goals still requires a medium of exchange, unless you really want to drag that cow to market, then figure out how to divide it between the merchants you bartered with. So, what I AM saying is you, and Dan, and me, and everybody shares the benefits as well as the costs of VALUATION, that is, assigning a value to materials for the purpose of exchanging those materials in an economy.

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  21. Miguel, Sorry, it looks like you were replying to my post while I amended it. How would you define Capitalism?

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  22. Suelo thanks for giving more food for thought. One of the principles of the "red road" is "take what you need, leave the rest be". I don't really think about "need" as much as "good usage". Bears eat more than needed and fatten up when food is plentiful, but they put that fat to use during the winter. Likewise, camels drink more than is needed at the moment, then use that during their trek across the dry expanse.

    If one lives where the availability of resources comes in seasons and cycles, then a "middle road" would be a matter of average. In times of plenty, to store a little. In times of scarcity, to empty a little. So why not be like Aesop's ant? But without moderating this to withstand the one season, it becomes wasteful hoarding.

    If one lives where the availability of resources is constant, then there is no need to store and empty. Likewise, if one migrates from plenty to plenty. In this case, why not be like Aesop's grasshopper?

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  23. Speakfreely: I see capitalism as a descentralized economy that values individual creativity and effort. Socialism on the other hand works as a centralized economy where individual effort is often neglected, although there are some examples of successful descentralized socialism.

    Unfortunately in the real world capitalism often degenerates into fascism. And socialism into tyranny. In the end I prefer free markets as a way of mantaining democracy, although I think it is important to give some respect to the State as well.

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  24. Ok, wikipedia says:
    Capitalism typically refers to an economic and social system in which the means of production (also known as capital) are privately controlled; labor, goods and capital are traded in a market; profits are distributed to owners or invested in new technologies and industries; and wages are paid to labor.

    With a little tweaking, this isn't a terrible model. How about if profit was distributed to labor as well as owners, or better still, was disallowed so prices of goods would drop and there would be less incentive to consume natural resources, and the incentive came from peoples' desire for a better life, rather than the greed of owners? I'm not saying this would solve all our problems, but it would go some distance towards helping. It would also spell disaster for the economy as we know it, but that's a better casualty than the earth that sustains us. It would also mean we would all work less, and live more.

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  25. I have never seen so many people try to take something simple, and make it difficult...just enjoy Suelo's blog for what it is(a description of one mans personal journey!),and stop reading so much into it, and being judgmental!! none of us are doing what he does, so why judge him about something we know nothing about?? walk a mile in his shoes, THEN you would have the knowledge to judge what he is doing!!

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  26. It doesn't take a genius to understand what he is doing and what are his personal motives. It appears simple and good, but it is not.

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  27. Of course it doesn't take a genius to UNDERSTAND what he is doing, but as was mentioned, unless we actually DO what he is doing, no one should judge him for it! and as for his personal motives, you have no clue...no one does,except for Suelo himself! everyone ASSUMES they know what his motives are,simply because they hate or fear something that is different! I enjoy a good dicussion as much as the next person, but why come here just to criticize someone elses way of doing things??

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  28. It better to criticize him than to praise him or follow him. A superior man follows his own path.
    Besides he is contributing nothing to society, he only takes from it and criticizes it.

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  29. Miguel, I'm not sure if you're just playing "devil's advocate" here, or just trying to stir the pot, but - in any case - can you maybe lay off a little bit with the criticisms please? They're somewhat out of line really.

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  30. Yes, I have the bad habit of looking at reality, and to find surprising things behind appearances. Forgive me for being realistic. Yes, I am out of line.

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  31. So, Miguel, what do you think Dan is doing? Forgive me for being dense, but I can only venture a guess. It certainly isn't OBVIOUS, at least not to me. I also disagree where you say he's not contributing anything. He's giving us this blog, which, at least for now, you and I both find sufficiently interesting to frequent.

    Anonymous, I disagree that Dan's blog is JUST one man's personal journey. He has a philosophy that he is promoting/developing here, and I think it is appropriate for people to object where they see fit. That can only help him and us in our respective journeys towards self understanding. I also disagree that I need to adopt Dan's lifestyle to imagine what it would be like. I've spent months on the road with a backpack, and each time it was a great learning experience. I think I can sufficiently appreciate the trials and joys of Dan's chosen lifestyle.

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  32. Of course Suelo is going to receive a heaping load of criticism because most people are addicted to the idea of money and the things they believe it can do for them.

    It really is quite comical to hear people complain about Suelo being a mooch, not giving anything back to society. Does this mean hunter/gatherers around the world did nothing but mooch off the earth? Society as a whole has degraded the earth in unfathomable ways, and you are complaining about Suelo not participating in this capitalist system which is dominating and destroying the world?

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  33. Speakfreely, I agree that Suelo's blog is an interesting place to frequent..I just wish more people would do so with an open mind and a kind heart. I've always respected a persons right to speak their feelings freely,good or bad;so I guess we have to put up with those who disagree, and hope someday they will realize it's pointless to keep coming here to voice those negative views!! for the rest of us, keep up the positive feedback...I'm sure it is appreciated.(though Dan seems to be the kind of guy who values ALL feedback!!)

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  34. I don't have anything against moochers, but I don't like moochers that claim they are morally superior to me, only because they happen to live in a cave.

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  35. speakfreely: I think "Dan" wants to have moral preeminence and possibly fame for it. That is his area of expertise and moneyless living is the way he found to achieve it. It is all a facade of course, for an insatiable ego.

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  36. Not that I think that having an insatiable ego is bad in itself, as I have one big ego as well. His hypocrisy is what I despise.

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  37. Lonewolf, Disagreement isnt always "negative". I believe posting different viewpoints and pointing out inconsistencies for thoughtful consideration brings more to the table than mindless praise. Its one of the hallmarks of an open mind. Additionly, I find that failing to bring things up (even if they hurt someone's feelings) is far more unkind than watching silently. Its simply not in my nature to be a blind follower.

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  38. Tommy, there is no such thing as a "red road". Sorry to disabuse you of the notion.

    SpeaksFreely said: We all need to answer these questions of balance for ourselves.


    And we do, excellent point. if Suelo can provide food for thought, great, let him. There's no person who gives us little bits of truth to chew on who is perfect themselves. yes, I do think Suelo has a helping of hypocrisy in him, but the trick is to take the good parts and discard what isn't good. Suelo can not provide anyone with a Road Map, there is no road map. We all live in a different state.

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  39. Anonymous, It wasn't my intention to imply that disagreement was always negative, nor to imply that anyone should blindly follow another! what I WAS trying to say is that there are those here that have made their point already, and that it is not necessary to "beat a dead horse". As you said, different viewpoints are fine, but repeating those viewpoints is what is pointless!! and pointing out inconsistencies is fine also, as long as they aren't 'imagined' inconsistencies born of anger or hate, which I believe to be the case here at times!!

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  40. Lonewolf, Thank you for the clarification. On my previous post to you the 2nd to the last sentence was misworded. It should have read "It's more unkind to watch silently than to speak up even if it hurts someone's feelings." You seem like an intelligent person and you understood what I was saying. I just wanted to correct that for any other readers. I understand the "dead horse" point. On the other hand I recognize that there are several posters that choose to weigh in with their own perspective. While it looks like a repeat often it is in reply to other poster's responses to their comments, such as this one. In regards to angery or hate motivated posts, I assume you are refering to the "dirk diggler" type I've seen on previous entries. Sure, they could be hate motivated but they could also simply be motivated by an immature "beavis and butthead" like sense of humor or the person is acting as a "pot stir". Personally, I like pot stirs. Especially on an impersonal medium such as the internet. When people get "worked up" they tend to display facets of themselves they normally would'nt. It gives readers a better understanding of blogger's and poster's thought processes, intentions and personal feelings. So, while some posts may be abrasive I feel they definately have their place on an open forum such as this. Just my thoughts and thanks again for the clarification.

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  41. Miguel, you are a trip. Some guy puts out an interesting blog where he shares his thoughts and the details of his life experiment, and you feel the need to use the comments section to "discredit" him?

    Who's really looking for "fame at any cost," the guy with the blog or the guy who tries to hijack the the guy's blog and turn it into a forum for his own BS opinions and theories?

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  42. Anonymous,Thanks for the kind words...you as well come across as an intelligent person. and yes, I was refering to the "dirk diggler" type.I like your idea that an immature "beavis and butthead" like sense of humor may be responsible for the nasty posts. I'm sure this will draw some hateful words as well.:) I agree that "pot stir" types keep the posts interesting and add a sense of honesty that would otherwise be absent, but the true haters need to move on!

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  43. David,regarding who is looking for "fame at any cost", you nailed it right on the head!!

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  44. @Polish Mayhem: To clarify, I was referring to a red road principle as published in the book "365 Days Of Walking The Red Road: The Native American Path to Leading a Spiritual Life Every Day" by Terri Jean.

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  45. Can't some of you critics just enjoy the ride?

    Henry

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  46. Henry, I think everyone (including critics) are enjoying the ride through active participation in the discourse. Afterall, they wouldnt be here if they did'nt at least find it interesting. Myself included. While I dont completely agree with Suelo's ideology, I freely admit he lives an interesting and apparently fulfilling life. So, at times I will offer a differing viewpoint or in some cases a criticism for thoughtful consideration and feedback (particularly if I sense a tone of zealotry), but I do NOT ever intend to condemn him.

    *since this is at least my 3rd or 4th post I will id myself as "JD". Sorry I should have earlier but I didnt realize I would end up making more than one or two comments lol.

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  47. David: I love fame and I am not afraid to say I like to get it in big quantities. Now, that does not happen with your friend Suelo. He thinks fame is given to him, not by his own efforts or desires. Nonsense I say. This blog is not written by God, but by a egotistical hippie.

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  48. I repeat, I am not blaming his mad search for fame but his hypocrisy. But yes, I should probably leave his pious followers praise him endlessly and get out of here.

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  49. I'm clarifying the 1 comment I made here, revising it to say "WE" instead of "you," so all will know I single out nobody, put nobody below anybody, me above nobody. I myself, along with every adult human on earth, every soil, deal with rotten roots popping up within me:

    "...simplicity of the mind is all that it's about. But if you take more than you need physically, how could it not betray a discontented, unsimplified mind? If I overeat, it betrays a discontented, unsimplified mind - an addicted mind. And if I take more than I need, others get less than they need. This is common sense we all know. You know the state of the root by the fruit. Sorry, WE can only hide a rotten root under high philosophy for so long before it betrays itself to the whole world."

    How can I know about a rotten root if I have not experienced it myself? How can I truly know ANYTHING but what is within me?

    Just yesterday, in fact, I found a plethora of tasty food & hoarded it, forgetting my houseless comrades (who get food from that same source). I over-ate, felt physically ill. How did this happen? My mind strayed from the present (became un-aware), lost in thought, lost in greed, called addiction. This isn't just about me & my rights. What makes me ill makes my neighbor ill, & visa versa. Now I am confessing this rotten root in me, yes, in me, exposing it to the light of your eyes. A root above ground, in the light, dies & can no longer produce fruit. I expose it voluntarily now, rather than it betray itself involuntarily, big & nasty, later.

    Now, I dare say to everybody (without the slightest feeling of arrogance): take my example. If that makes me egotistical, then let the whole world be egotistical!

    If you want to know if the statement I made to Miguel is true or false, the evidence is within every single one of us! You don't have to research anyplace else but within!

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  50. Thank you for clarifying. Reading it more carefully, I think you may be right after all.

    I am not sure if your message is true in a methaphorical sense or in a literal sense. I guess we should figure it out by ourselves.

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  51. Metaphorical or literal?
    Is it a metaphor for reality?
    Or it is a "how to" literal interpretation?

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  52. I think those are valid questions miguel. Furthermore, I think I understand why you are asking them. I too am a little concerned with the verbage. This is neither a judgement nor a condemnation but as I read it Oral Roberts came to mind. I prefer to chock it up to simple verbage given the last two sentences struck me as reasonable.
    JD

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  53. Oral Roberts, lol. Thank you, that was offensive.

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  54. clarification insert: As I read Suelo's comment Oral Roberts came to mind.
    JD

    P.S. I am trying my best to tread lightly as I said its not meant as a condemnation or judgement of Suelo. I think I understand why miguel is asking for clarification of literal or metaphorical.

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  55. Don't worry. Suelo and I are the same guy. He is God and I am the Devil. It's the same thing really, two aspects of the same reality.

    God descends as the Devil. And the Devil ascends as God. It's alchemy at work.

    Really, our individuality is an illusion. We are only manifestations of God (Or the Devil).

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  56. LMAO, nevermind. I was really trying to avoid typing a long post. LOL its not that important though, maybe I will bother detailing what I meant tomorrow. That was good Miguel. Sorry you mistook me for a bible thumper. LOL that was a great piece of bait though. Thanks for the laugh, catch ya tomorrow.
    JD

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  57. Miguel, I think Suelo is pricking your conscience.

    Henry

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  58. Suelo - thank you for keeping this blog, as it has provided much food for thought. It takes a lot of fortitude to live the way you do in today's world. At first I found it disheartening to read all of the negative comments here, but then again this blog offers quite a unique platform for discussion, one which is bound to promote strong feelings and opinions.

    Best of luck to you on your life path.

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  59. Are any of the people who have expressed the opinion that Suelo isn't "contributing" anything willing to elaborate on how they are contributing to society themselves? Would they pluck up the courage to elaborate on what it is they actually "do"?

    Even if they are, there isn't any basis - rational or moral - for this sort of criticism.

    Why? Because :
    (i) Suelo costs nothing to society - no one's workload is increased because of Suelo's lifestyle. (So someone gave him a lift on the highway? Wow - that means they had to open the door to let him into the vehicle! Gosh, what a burden! )
    (ii) As for his contribution : a significant number of people have already acknowledged his contribution on this very blog (either implicitly - by just saying "thanks" for a thought-provoking read (see post directly above this - or dozens elsewhere), or explicitly - by making the same sort of point I am making now).

    Has anyone acknowledged the irony in the fact that Suelo is just as capable a writer as those who do this as a "profession"? Or that his writings are - in a sense - orders of magnitude more valuable than that of the journalists and authors who write "for a living"?

    Suelo is, in a sense, doing the "heavy-lifting". The gospel says that the "burden is light" - and, in one sense, I think it is. In another sense though, I suspect it is very heavy.

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  60. davidc: I think Suelo has talent for writing, if that is what you mean. However he is not the only writer who has talent or who writes interesting stuff.

    And your defense of him is pretty lame. A devastating attack can be made against him (and anybody in general), using truth alone. I think I have tried to prove that theory, but maybe not very convincingly as yet.

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  61. Henry: No, my conscience is pretty strong and flexible. Suelo's strategy only worked to appease my anger. In no way I feel guilty and this is pretty strange because people like Suelo are experts on the art of manipulation by guilt.

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  62. Miguel.
    I think what you may be missing,(but maybe you are not because I haven't read every single post here, including all of yours) is Suelo shows us that there is a simpler life, free of the slavery of our 'modern' lifestyle.
    Look, I, like most others, am a slave of my employer, my creditors, my government, and to the 'bread and circuses' of this society.
    Even though I wouldn't live like he does, I am trying to free myself as much as possible.

    Henry

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  63. Yeah I may be a little neurotic. I guess I don't need to live moneyless to be able to understand, or apply his message. That is if I don't take it too literally.

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  64. I dunno. Sometimes I've felt, from the very beginning, an eerie camaraderie with Miguel. All words are parable (metaphor), and this life is a drama. Drama must have an antagonist, otherwise it sucks. One Day in the Now, beyond Time, beyond words, we leave our drama and enter Reality. Meanwhile, "Love your enemy", because he/she makes the drama. "Go and do what you have to do." It goes beyond my comprehension.

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  65. I don't like the view that life is drama, I prefer to think it is comedy.

    Suelo and other readers: I recommend you watch "El Topo" and "The Holy Mountain" by Alejandro Jodorowsky. In "El Topo" a cult film classic, a guy has to kill four masters.

    The funny thing is that I can not kill Suelo because he is invincible, as he is "egoless". However he can not kill me neither because I am invincible too, as I am "egoless" too. I guess we are losing our time fighting. That is if Suelo have "fighted" at all.

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  66. Miguel, If you prefer to think of life as comedy,,perhaps you should develop a sense of humor and stop making such a fuss over everything!also, whether you meant killing Suelo in a literal sense or not, I find it to be in poor taste to say such things here, or anywhere..you go too far, which I think you know and enjoy! And why would anyone want to watch a film about a guy who kills four masters?what si the point you are trying to make with that suggestion?? another question: what brought you to this blog in the first place?? do you seek out places where you can go to "stir up the pot" or incite conflict?? as I've stated before, I respect your right to freely express yourself, but why keep up the negative rhetoric?? can you not find anything positive to say about Suelo's blog??

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  67. Sorry about the spelling and puntuation errors in my previous post..not the worlds best typer. :)

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  68. Good grief, I read this blog because I think it's interesting, not because I'm looking for a teacher or a roadmap...... amazing to me that so many readers take Suelo's trip as one that has something to do with them.... he's just blogging about his life and ideas; so yours are different, well whose aren't? Sounds like some of you would be happy with your own blogs, maybe you'd enjoy taking that step..

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  69. Wondering Woman...I agree that some people here would be better off starting a blog of their own, and leave this one for those of us who appreciate what Suelo is doing, and nothing more. I admit I've gotten sucked into some of the drama, but I felt the need to know WHY some people come here to bitch and moan about things!! we should simply enjoy the blog for what it is...one mans interesting journey!!!

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  70. Are you suggesting I should start my own blog?

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  71. Not trying to hide, I just don't know how to post here other than under Anonymous.
    Message for Suelo:
    Dan, I learned about you just recently, and was sure impressed. This world needs more people like you. I respect you for who you are, and wish you all the best!
    Your fan from Indiana

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  72. Dan, your fan from Indiana is here, again.
    I was thinking about you, your ideas, beliefs etc., and while I'm essentially fully with you, I found something, that, IMO, is not accurate enough: Your belief, that money is the root of evil.
    I think, we can declare symbolically, that money is a root of evil. In reality, I believe, the root of evil is our greed. Greed, and insensitivity to other human beings.
    Imagine for a second, that money was not around, and try to picture the difference. There would not be a substantial difference there, if money no longer existed, but our greed would be still here. Only absence of our greed and more understanding (love/sensitivity) for other people could make the difference.
    While, we may have a little disagreement here, you are still hero in my eyes. The way you are dedicated to your beliefs amazes me.

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  73. lonewolf:
    "And why would anyone want to watch a film about a guy who kills four masters?"

    Answer: Because it is a sacred film, full of symbolism that explains the process of awakening.
    It is made by mystic, healer and artist Alejandro Jodorowsky.

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  74. It is available complete on YouTube. You can also download it as a torrent or buy it legally on DVD.

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  75. Hi ,

    This is truth. Money is more addective and we don't have cure for this. Everyone need more and more.

    You are nearly following the footsteps of India Sadhu who do not need money either.

    I salute your courage to quit money in any form .

    Take care of yourself.

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  76. There has been a lot of talk about Suelo being a "mooch" and using this Blog to feed his ego. But is maintaining this Blog really any less of a contribution than most of the crap produced by Hollywood? What about most lawyers or cosmetic surgeons? Do they really deliver anything of value?

    I personally value Suelo's Blog and the inspiration that it provides more than I value the services mentioned above. What does Miguel do for a living and is it really any less parasitic than Suelo's activities? Are his comments any less ego driven than Suelo's? And how much ego goes into the desire to become a doctor, a lawyer, or a politician? As other's have pointed out, we can make assumptions about people's motivations, but we can't really know.

    I prefer to see this Blog as Suelo's contribution and assume that he maintains it because he has something to contribute rather than to feed his ego.

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  77. As much as I despise Hollywood, they give jobs to hundreds of people, and indirectly to millions of people. They may not produce art or educate the public, but at least they produce jobs.

    Lawyers, well I guess they are necesary. Most of them may be selfish and greedy, but not all. Same think happens with cosmetic surgeons, they have done wonders for some people and have destroyed the body (or soul) of others.

    ¿Is Suelo better than them?. I would say yes, but the answer may be a little more difficult to ponder.

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  78. Hey Indiana -
    You might notice nowhere in this blog or website do I call money evil or the root of all evil. The culprit is greed (the love of money, or love of credit), as you say. Money has been our teacher. I envision money going obsolete, if we are to survive. Check out the FAQ on the website (upper right corner).

    To the others: Yes, sometimes I find this blog feeding my ego. I'm only human. You can find hypocrisy in every adult on earth, if you're looking for it, & use that to discount anything good in them. That's called politics. May I & we all improve.

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  79. Loving money or greed is considered taboo in our society. Some people say we should debunk that myth, others that we should agree. It is weird that an outcast like Suelo would support a taboo.
    Don't you think?.

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  80. I think money has it's place. Theoretically it allows us to stockpile surplus during good times to see us through during bad times. In this sense it allows us to diversify our employment away from the activities directly necessary to survival.

    The trouble is that our economy has become so complex that blurs the distinction between useful work and work that makes money. As our economy has become more complex, it has created artificial need for people to perform services that didn't used to be required (legal counsel included). The truth is that the vast majority of us (myself included) are surplus population in the sense that we don't provide the necessities of life for ourselves or others. The sooner we recognize this, the sooner we can have a just, sane, and truly sustainable economic system.

    With regard to ego, I find it heartening for Suelo to admit that his ego gets a boost from this blog. It's honest. I also wonder if it's possible for any of us to take any initiative (with a blog for instance) without our egos prodding us along.

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  81. "I also wonder if it's possible for any of us to take any initiative (with a blog for instance) without our egos prodding us along."

    It is impossible. Although our Ego can also limit our options and understanding. That may be the reason mystics and religious Guru's hate the Ego.

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  82. Indiana here.
    Dan (Suelo), maybe I just made innacurate conclusion about you thinking, that money is the root of evil. It was just my impression, but probably not very accurate.
    I believe, we are pretty much on the same page, anyway.
    As for your FAQ, I certainly read it. Actually, this was the main part (of your website), that made me like you and respect you.
    My heart is with you Dan!

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  83. "Kids ask for things, adults invest."

    If this is true, then Suelo would be a kid.

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  84. Miguel; why don't you take your rude comments, and your child-like need to cause problems and just leave....go start your own damn blog, one where you can preach your hatred and feed your lust for all things rotten! I respected your right to free speech, but your childish jabs are getting old!! so go on and start a blog..maybe call it "Haters Inc."or some such nonsense,I'm sure there is a following out there for you....but it's NOT here!!!!

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  85. lonewolf:
    My comments may be rude, but they are honest. That is what I think, like it or not. Hypocrisy is not my policy.

    And I would like you to remember that you are not Suelo. If Suelo asks me to leave, be certain that I will do it. Otherwise shut up, because you are a nobody to me.

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  86. So much to do about nothing. Only one is perfect, and none of us is that one. To take less and give more should be our mission. With Jesus as our model we would all do better. My "9 to 5"(more like 7 to 6) is killing me and I cant find any answer other than to simplify. Maybe then I/we can find a way to help our brothers and sisters. Cause we all need help. Kudos to someone who is trying to find the answer. heh.... maybe I will join ya or at least take something to impart to another. This life I live is nothing.

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  87. Miguel:
    Obviously I'm not Suelo, but I am someone who comes here to enjoy this blog, and I get tired(as I'm sure many do)of reading your mindless drivel....if you actually had something interesting to say, that would be different, but, but you keep spouting your garbage!! as for shutting up, and being a nothing to you,well...I would respond to that, but I'm above such petulant behavior! It's too bad that people like you have to taint something good and ruin it for those who enjoy it without the hate; unfortunately, it is a free world, so I expect you will keep on spreading your hate, just because you can!!

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  88. I think this blog is a wonderful tool, and I would propose that "negative" comments (actions) offer a different and necesary perspective and help to focus and stimulate ideas. Anything can be viewed as positive or negative only our ego makes such a distinction. Everything can be learned from so therefore all is both good and evil.john

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  89. Ugh, this is still going on? Ok, Miguel since you obviously have self-appointed yourself the little lord of the comment section, why don't you explain to us why exactly anybody should care about your opinions and critiques? What have you ever done that makes you the superior enlightened one?

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  90. This post is for all the people who visit this site: I want to apologize for allowing myself to get caught up in these silly "confrontations" with Miguel...I just got tired of his negativity concerning this blog,but I now realize I'm no better if I use this space to vent my frustration! So,this blog is by, and about Suelo, not Miguel, or anyone else, so I will stick to the topics this site is about, and leave Miguel to exercise his right to free speech! Again, sorry folks!!

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  91. Suelo touches people in different ways, in different places. Some of those places may not be very comfortable.
    I think people like Miguel do not want to see certain things in themselves that Suelo makes them see.
    While I would never VOLUNTARILY live my life like he does, he has certainly made me see that no matter how I try to justify my position in life, I am just a slave, plain and simple.
    Some people refuse to see that they are also slaves, no matter what their station in life.
    Rich, poor, middle, YOU AND I ARE SLAVES!!!!!

    Henry

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  92. lonewolf: Please say something interesting and I will hear it, otherwise please abstain from posting.

    David: Isn't it obvious that I make interesting comments or questions?.

    Henry: Suelo may not be a slave of money, but he is a slave of nature. And nature can be very evil, as our understanding of biology and ecology shows us.

    And Henry you are right that Suelo makes me see things that I don't want to see, namely that we are slaves to money. But that is stupid to me, I think it is worse to be a slave to a job you don't like. If you have many options you like, that is not being a slave to me.

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  93. John: Thanks for being a supporter of mine. I never give thanks to my allies. Generally I want to fight by myself against the world, but I have found out it is stupid and difficult. Group action is definetely more effective.

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  94. Miguel: you seem to be confused about many things; you should take the advice that you wrongly gave to lonewolf..abstain from posting! and your arrogant answer to David's question only proves your own ignorance. To Suelo,I say "keep up the good work"!!

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  95. "Anonymous":

    First. Shut the fuck up. Wise people appear to be confused to the ignorant, so I am not surprised you see me as confused about many things.

    Second. I don't write nonsense like lonewolf. And my answer to David was not arrogant, it was honest as I am aware of my talents and capabilities.

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  96. Miguel: you are a sad,scared little man, as is obvious by your immature use of profanity at this site!and your theory that "wise people appear confused to the ignorant" is immature mud slinging as well..you need to grow up! also, I have read all the posts here, including lonewolf's, and yours are the only ones that are filled with nonsense, and from what I've read, others seem to agree with me. and being aware of ones talents is fine, bragging about them is juvenile at best!!all your doing is making yourself look like a fool to all the people who read this blog!! maybe it's time for you to pack up your stuff, move out of your mom's basement, and get a real life like the rest of normal society!! by the way, just out of curiosity, what does a guy like you consider his "talents and capabilities" to consist of???

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  97. "David: Isn't it obvious that I make interesting comments or questions?"

    No, not really. If anything your attempts to control the comment section and insert yourself into every conversation are making things quite boring.

    Interesting conversations might have had room to grow, but because of your need to be the center of attention all we are left with these sterile rounds of back-and-forth bickering.

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  98. David: I agree with you whole-heartedly!! it is becoming obvious that this is exactly what Miguel has in mind... he wants people to bicker and argue with him, it's what drives guys like him..he feeds off of it, and counts on our anger to cause us to engage him in his little game. the best thing we can do is to not respond...just ignor him!we can hope he goes away, though his type usually doesn't!!so, to all that read this...just talk around him!!

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  99. Travis from Michigan.
    Daniel, I read about your story a month or so ago on men.style.com and I found it very compelling. For the past six months i've really lost my faith in the modern day materialistic society that I live in. Today, in my opinion, more people care about possesing tangible objects than about one another. I often thought about living the society I live in and becoming a nomadic vagabond, after college of course, and see what this beautiful world has to offer; other than wasting my years working for some greedy coporation. Good luck to you Daniel.

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  100. David: You seem very intelligent. So I think you noticed my responses were made to be logical and powerful. Unfortunately sometimes education serves to hide stupidity, as may be your situation. You say very sophisticated words, but they may be empty after all.

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  101. Suelo: A million years from now we would have already colonized our galaxy and we would be exploring beyond it. Maybe some of us will be remembered, that is if modern history is preserved.

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  102. I like Suelo's blog. I also like Miguel's comments. A doctrine with no opposition is a failed doctrine, like Christianity. Without a challenge, things atrophy.

    And Tommy, yeah I understand. Terri Jean is a fraud, and does not speak for Native Americans. There is no more a "red road" than there is a yellow one, a white one or a black one. Even the US government admits over 500 tribes exist, and the truth is many more than that do. Guess what? That's over 500 roads. The Hopi and the Navajo live right next to one another and their religions are totally different. Saying the red road is like saying the "African Road", and pretending every Tribe in Africa thinks the same thing.

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  103. Miguel doesn't get the math. See Peter Singer's 1999 NY Times essay for the calculation.
    If you take more then you need then your basically guilty of murder. He has a case of Boomeritis. Boomeritis: A Novel That Will Set You Free is a 2002 novel by the philosopher Ken Wilber. Boomeritis, according to Wilber, is the deadly combination of a modern, liberal,egalitarian worldview and a deep unquestioned narcissism.

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  104. Math is for idiots who can't do philosophy or literature. And get real, Peter Singer is not the best example, as doesn't live in a cave.

    Also it could be argued that Suelo is guilty of Boomeritis and of murder too. Please consider carefully the following arguments and references.

    First: He uses boots, neglecting walking barefoot. It seem surprising a man as intelligent as him, doesn't seem to know that shoes damage our feet and are not necessary. Read this:

    You Walk Wrong
    It took 4 million years of evolution to perfect the human foot. But we’re wrecking it with every step we take.

    http://nymag.com/health/features/46213/


    Second: He uses clothes, hiding his body to accord with obsolete moral standards. He doesn't seem to know that being nude is the natural way. He neglects his body and prefers to live the way of Babylon, using clothes. Read this:

    Inudist's personal page on nudism (or naturism)
    http://sites.google.com/site/inudist/Home

    It seems Suelo suffers from Boomeritis and is not as wise as he seems to be.

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  105. Extract from article from "New York" magazine:

    “Natural gait is biomechanically impossible for any shoe-wearing person,” wrote Dr. William A. Rossi in a 1999 article in Podiatry Management.

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  106. Do you really think that a shoe wearing and clothes wearing person like Suelo can be wise?. I doubt it.

    Diogenes of Sinope was a better example, he didn't hide his body with clothes, nor he did damage his feet with shoes. He also lived in a barrel, had high morality and teached wisdom to other men. Now, that is a good example to follow.

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  107. Miguel..the depth of your ignorance is truly amazing!!

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  108. Anonymous:

    Ignorance doesn't have depth. It is truly amazing you find depth in it. Maybe you are confusing my ignorance with my wisdom.

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  109. Wisdom seems like ignorance sometimes.

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  110. Miguel,
    Wow, ignorance AND arrogance.your mama must be so proud!!and fear not, your ignorance is the real thing...don't worry about confusing it with wisdom!!

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  111. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  112. Ignorance is not real and arrogance is my right for being wise. I insist that you are confusing my wisdom with my ignorance.

    Also I have no "mama". I am a self-made man. I guess you are a weak pussy that received a lot of love from your momma. Shut up you fool.

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  113. Suelo, I think you're ready to show the world how to live without money. Has anyone offered to do a detailed "how to" documentary? If not,contact www.journeyfilm.com. JB might like to do it. He knows all about ultralight backpacking. I think you would both benefit from the collaboration.

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  114. Suelo,
    I think Michael has a good idea about the "how to" documentary; I'm sure there are many who would find such a thing very interesting and informative..I know I would!!you should consider it!!

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  115. Miguel,
    You may be self-made, but you are certainly not a man, more like a lost, scared little boy!!go away now and leave this site to the adults!

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  116. You are not an adult, not even Suelo.

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  117. Aho Mitakuye Oyasin!

    Greetings. Your example gives couridge and good examples (thank god you are not the only one! :)) are of course more important, compelling and empowering than roadmaps full of shoulds and should nots.

    But I have this question, maybe you have given it thought and ever written about it. What is easy for a single man is (nearly?) impossible for a community, a tribe, with old people and children to take care of. Sure, there are few tribes left in the deepest forests, most remote islands, living without money, naturally, but even they are hardly safe from the reach of the global empire.

    All these new ecocommunities learning sustainable self-sufficiency in balance with nature shrooming around is wonderfull and gives great hope, but even among them I haven't heard of an example of a community living totally free from money.

    A "lone fool" the society can tolerate, but an example of totally moneyless and even non-bartering community both in internal and external relations - they couldn't find a place to live and if living nomadically their children would be taken away, at least hereabouts.

    Aho

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  118. But it is the hope Aho that Suelo is showing us, that perhaps we should try to explore different ways to live, others social models. We need to go back to the universals human values that keep us alive in harmony with others and our surroundings and not the quick way to our own self-destruction that we are heading. Ana

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  119. Aho and Ana,
    The Native Americans lived without money for many generations, and did just fine; sure they bartered and traded, but that is not the same as depending on money. hell, they never even knew of the evils of money until the white man took over their land. Though I am not a Native American, I think we could learn alot from their old ways...it worked then,it could work now,IF people are just willing to try!! Suelo was willing to go for it, and he sounds happy to me!!

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  120. As I read this forum many random thoughts come to mind that I find hard to assemble.

    "I don't like Miguel! But, as steel sharpens steel, maybe is comments can sharpen my thoughts?"

    "I learn about people suffering in the world, people that go without food, and I feel guilty for all that i have and infact waste daily. Yet, I do nothing substancial to change."

    "I see people that have so much, way more than I do, and I feel sorry for them because they think they are superior. Then I become conscious of the three fingers pointinng back at myself"

    "Someone commented previously "Bears eat more than needed and fatten up when food is plentiful, but they put that fat to use during the winter. Likewise, camels drink more than is needed at the moment, then use that during their trek across the dry expanse." It seems to me that they didn't infact take more than was needed in this scenario?

    I feel trapped in society. I can't possibly walk away from the debt I owe so I stay trapped in a cycle. But, in my ideal world, if i had no debt, I think i'd own a travel trailer, enjoy life in simplicity, continue to work at my high paying job, give the excess to those that have less, and be thankful for all of the above.....Shane

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  121. I think you should do what you like. If you like money, be honest about it and go for it. If you don't like money, be honest about it and go for something else. That's my philosophy of life.

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  122. On the other hand be careful with guilt. It is a weakness of many people (including me) and it is generally used for the advantage of the shrewd. Suelo and people like him are very knowledgable of this weak point of people's psyche. He is not very naive at all.

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  123. Shane:
    You say you don't like me, but you seem to respect me. Is it better to be liked or to be respected?.

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  124. OMG Miguel STFU...nobody likes you, nobody wants you here. Are you some kind of sick masochist or what?

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  125. Some people here do appreciate me.

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  126. Miguel,
    You tell Shane "if you don't like money, be honest about it and go for something else", yet that is exactly what Suelo did and you do nothing but rag him about it!what is your damage??? do you enjoy having people dislike you, because as Fed Up said, nobody likes you, and nobody wants you here!so, why continue to preach your nonsense?? you need to move on!!

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  127. This is a message to all the good people who frequent this site; the Miguels of the world will always interject themselves where they are not wanted, and no amount of talking will make them go away, so as I've said before, just ignore his immature ramblings.. he wants people to respond to him, it's what he is here for...he feeds off the negativity; so, don't help fuel his fantasy..IGNORE HIM!! I can't imagine that Suelo wanted his site to be a breeding ground for ignorance, so let's all enjoy this site for what it is, and disregard the Miguels of the world!!

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  128. Anonymous:

    The problem with Suelo is that he thinks his path is the only valid one. And makes others feel morally inferior.

    I am amused at the wide range of suporters of Suelo that don't follow his principles. I am beginning to think they are a bunch of losers that enjoy to see falling down other more successful people and don't care about Suelo's philosophy at all. At best they have only a superficial interest in moneyless living.

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  129. So many responses to these postings, so little time to address them all.

    First of all, Suelo probably wears clothes because he lives in Utah which has a climate that humans aren't adapted to go naked in- at least not for a good part of the year. Also, during the time that he spends traveling in Babylon, he would get harassed to no end if he went naked. Going in and out of jail is not living simply or freely!

    Second, I'd like to support the notion that Suelo's contribution is that he shows the rest of us an alternative to the slavery that we subject ourselves to. I personally recognize that we could not all live as he does- who would throw away all of the things that his lifestyle requires if none of the rest of us were consumers? However, we could certainly live on less and be less reliant on money. I'd like to live more like Suelo, but I'm still concentrating on building my job skills so that I have something to contribute in any type of economy. I don't really plan to live without money at any point (it would be a nice ideal), but I have more than a superficial interest in moneyless living!

    Third, nature can't be good or evil any more than the motivations that we attribute to it. We evolved in nature, we arose from natural processes, and we will all succumb to the natural necessity of death. All of this plays out in different ways for different individuals, but none of us are fully sheltered from it. When it comes to the damage that can be inflicted on the soul, civilization is much more "evil" in my opinion than nature.

    Finally, with regard to Miguel: I agree with the comment that Miguel's criticisms might "sharpen" our thoughts about Suelo's philosophy. It's always good to have a counter point or someone playing the devil's advocate. But anyone who feels a need to berate other posters with personal insults (my comments are intended to be constructive, not berating) and who posts new comments only minute apart without anyone else posting in between is clearly overdoing it! It looks a bit like an obsession to someone who checks back on this discussion every few days.

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  130. I think I have the right to insult those who insult me.

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  131. Anonymous:

    I agree with your view on nature. I believe shamans and african tribesman are more connected with nature than ourselves. However they are also slaves to superstitions and tradition. And what's worse, they are completely isolated from civilized society. I don't think that isolation is a good thing and that is one of the reasons I think Suelo is not a good example for anyone.

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  132. This has led me to think civilization is not bad at all. It is only a step in our evolution. It hs the down side of separating us from nature, but I think this can be fixed without renouncing civilization.

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  133. And about death being a certainty, well it is the natural end of life. However science has been trying to extend the lifespan of many live forms and have succeeded to some extent.

    I am beginning to think we will be immortal soon, as many experts in those areas believe as well. And I am a little worried because I was beginning to like the notion of dying, thanks to my study of religions.

    If this were not enough, the human brain is going to be completely simulated in supercomputers in ten years. This is just a step to immortal artificial intelligences, similar or superior in intelligence to humans, populating the planet. Get ready for Androids everywere. Things may change a lot in the following years. And I won't call that as evil, just evolution.

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  134. So don't take anything for granted, not even death.

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  135. This is the link to the brain emulation project:

    Blue Brain Project
    http://bluebrain.epfl.ch/

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  136. Respect you Miguel? No friend, I can't say I have respect for you. I think you have some underlying issue that needs professional help. Some criticism is understandable, possibly appreciated, but you sir are obsessed! I found none of the accusations you allege anywhere in Suelo's postings. I just see he is offering his story which is a different point of view.

    I believe people are drawn to Suelo because he is different. For all we know he could be a con or saint, but more likely somewhere in between like the rest of us. Regardless, I take from him a different view that helps bring me to MY middle ground.

    All that being said, what a wondeful forum this is! Reading through all the posts has really done me some good, and i'm thankful for the experience......Shane

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  137. Miguel: You do have the right to insult anyone you want, but when you exchange petty insults, it decreases your credibility. If you believe in what you write, defend it with well considered comments. Personal insults aren't worth responding to.

    Another point: Few of us so called "civilized" people have such a complete understanding of science or whatever it is that we accept as reality to truly be unsuperstitious. It often happens that scientists are so bogged down with their own science related dogmas, that they reject conflicting though perfectly valid evidence when it's placed right in front of them. This keeps members of our supposedly rational society from being any different in a fundamental sense from "shamans and african tribeman" (Miguel's words). As for isolation from civilization being a bad thing, I don't buy into that either. Some level of civilization may be necessary to our survival, but that doesn't mean it isn't injurious to people who live within it. Freud thought that civilization is the root cause of neurosis, and I see some truth in that.

    As for immortality in computers, it may be inevitable, but what about those of us who choose to remain human? Will we have any rights? Will we still be able to live the way we choose to? It's already bad enough that everyone is expected to have a cell phone! Will any of us be able to get away with living as natural human beings? This to me is the essence of the problem with "civilization" of the type that we have ended up with. Once some technological innovation becomes mainstream, everyone is expecting to adopt it regardless of the personal or financial cost. I don't like the idea of being tied down by a cell phone contract- it limits my personal and financial freedom. So I'm supposed to willingly upload my soul to a computer just because it's the "civilized" thing to do? Digital immortality might be fine for most people, but I want it to be my choice rather than something that society pressures me to do- like getting a cell phone.

    I've rambled enough, but like Shane I'm thankful for the mental stimulation of this forum!

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  138. Shane: It's too bad that you don't respect me, as I was beginning to respect you. You seem a rather dull person, I though you had an interesting mind. You lose my respect.

    Anonymous: You make good points. I agree that scientists, in special modern scientists are too limited in their thinking. But I don't agree that civilization is inherently a bad thing. I believe it is neutral, it has advantages and disadvantages. It is just a step in our evolution.

    And about immortality, well nobody said the only way was uploading into a computer as a bodyless avatar. You can also upload into a artificial body with computer integrated into head. Also biological immortality may be possible as well, with biotech and genetic engineering developments. Time will tell.

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  139. So, moving on.

    I call myself a Christian and am a fan of Gandhi and would like to hear some thoughts on his quote “Man becomes great exactly in the degree in which he works for the welfare of his fellow-men.”

    There is a point to the question which will come later.

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  140. I don't call myself a Christian nor am I a fan of Gandhi. But I think I understand the quote and I will try to explain it.

    ***
    If a man works for himself alone, he goes against himself because his limited conception of himself (or ego) and reality will cause his own self-destruction. If that were not enough, he goes against the well being of humanity as a whole.

    On the other hand if we works for something larger than himself, he can understand himself better and be creative. And also create a happier future for humanity.

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  141. Shane,
    I was thinking about Gandhi's quote that you mentioned, and it made me think of another quote by him that I feel best describes what Suelo is doing and the reason for this blog..."my life is my message"; I think that say's it all! what do you think?? And as for the meaning of the quote you listed, I think it means that a man becomes nothing of consequence if he works only towards his own goals, but achives greatness when he puts the welfare of his fellow men first!

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  142. Well said Miguel! -Peace offering :)-

    Lonewolf, there in is the problem. Gandhi was exceptional, not flawless, but exceptional. I believe he was one of the greatest men to ever live. So, for the rest of us to say, "my life is my message", would rarely be good advice. I can say with 100% certainty that I would not want anyone to follow my example as a whole. But my best trait is that I have a heart for others. So take from me your piece of "your" puzzle and assemble the whole. If the piece doesn't fit, go find the ones that do.

    I like Suelo's story and am better for having heard it. I find in his story a piece that fits my puzzle. The puzzle piece i take from Suelo looks like this....I will make it a priority to pay off any debt I have and put myself in a position that I don't get in debt again. I will sell the things I do not need. I will simplify my life, likely not as simple as Suelo, but enough to limit many distractions. I will use the gift i was given, my job, to help others that are in need.

    And the search for more puzzle pieces continues...............Shane

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  143. Shane,
    I think you misunderstood my use of Gandhi's quote; it was not intended to be advice..that would be presumptuous.. it was simply meant as a statement, as it applies to Suelo's situation: the way he is living ("my life") and this blog he created to tell other's about it. ("is my message"). Suelo has never advised anyone to do as he is doing, only telling others of his experience.what people do with that knowledge is up to them! I personaly think the world would be a much better place if EVERYONE took less and gave back more, but society is mostly fixed in it's ways, and that is truly sad.hell, how can we expect society to change, when we can't even have a blog such as this without all the in-fighting and jabs..change only occurs when people are receptive it. we all talk of our "fellow man", yet we can't even get along here;and the sad truth is that someone will make fun of what I just said, perhaps call me a name, and for what???

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  144. You seem to have an amazing approach to life, and truly seem to be at peace living the way you do. I wonder how many of us can say the same.

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  145. I don't think isolating from society is the way to go, but at least Suelo has this blog to communicate with the outside world.

    It may be true that money is necessary after all to live meningfully in society. And maybe it is even sacred. Yeah it would be fun to turn a taboo concept like money and turn it into something sacred, it has already been done with sex. Worship and respect sacred money everyone.

    How can you serve others if you are isolated from society?. How can you teach others if you are isolated from society?. First you have to join society to be able to change it from the inside.

    Moneyless living is a trap, don't fall for it.

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  146. Lonewolf: I have to disagree with your statement "Suelo has never advised anyone to do as he is doing, only telling others of his experience". He clearly feels that his way is the superior way. And the mere existance of this forum is proof he wants to enlighten the world to his way.

    Now I say, "so what"! No one person has it all figured out! I could pick Suelo's story apart and easily prove hypocrisy. In the same token, i freely admit that my life is full of hypocrisy.

    So now I ask, what do we do with Suelo's story? Do we take a hard line like Miguel and call BS on the entire thing? I say we embrace a different point of view. Take from it what we can use and leave what we can't and in the process hopefully become better for it.

    I admire Suelo, and if ever i am passing through Moab, i would treasure the opportunity to sit with him awhile. I also embrace your point of view and take from your knowledge.

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  147. Miguel: I tend to side with you in that, money is what we have to deal with in the now, so we should use it for doing good until it is no longer valid.

    I'd like you to list the things about Suelo that you like and/or agree with, as surely there must be?

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  148. Shane:

    Ok, here I go with my list of things I like about Suelo:

    1. Honesty.
    2. Simplicity.
    3. Modesty.
    4. Wisdom.

    But all these things seem so relative when you look closely, that I am not so sure about them. We are human after all, so perfect honesty or perfect wisdom are impossible for us to attain.

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  149. Perfectly stated Miguel!

    Someone once told me to take away what it is that you don't like about something. Then we can talk about the rest. I try to apply that as often as possible.

    Another of my favorite Gandhi quotes “I look only to the good qualities of men. Not being faultless myself, I won’t presume to probe into the faults of others.”

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  150. That is a good Gandhi quote and I happen to agree with it. Although sometimes looking only at the good things can be problematic. It is a matter of balance I think.

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  151. Shane,
    I appreciate your comments, but saying that Suelo feels his way is clearly the superior way, sounds like you have already taken Miguel's "hard line", and I have to admit that I am surprised!I didn't figure you to be the type to "jump on the wagon". but, as I've said before, it's a free world!!! it would just be nice if everyone didn't feel the need to fit in the same mold? does something positive always have to be offset by a negative?? is it too hard to accept that something could be,and stay positive??

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  152. Lonewolf:

    You seem a blind follower ready to cover up any perceived fault in his "master". Get real, humans have shortcomings.

    And yes, Suelo thinks his way of life is the only valid one. And I think it is a grave mistake of his, because there is not such a thing as a "valid" path. Specially when it involves isolation from society.

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  153. I think that Suelo's renouncement of the world is in fact a very selfish act. He is not helping anyone, in fact he can not even help himself. If that were not enough he thinks he is at the top of the moral hierarchy being able to say how others should live.

    That said, it is very clear his moneyless living has helped him to overcome many limitations he had in his previous way of life. So as selfish as it is, it has paid off to him somehow. Not that I would recommend it to anyone.

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  154. Are these statements of assumption or are they statements of fact?

    "isolating from society?", repeated over and over.
    Do you know that I am, Miguel?

    "He clearly feels that his way is the superior way. And the mere existance of this forum is proof he wants to enlighten the world to his way."
    Do you know these things, Shane?

    Would it be at all useful to defend myself here? Is it useful to defend oneself in a court that has already reached a verdict? First, the court must be just. Until then, there is no real defense.

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  155. Suelo:

    You have already been unjust with money and with those that manage money.

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  156. Miguel,
    I don't believe I ever said,or implied that Suelo,or anyone else for that matter, is without shortcomings. I agree that we ALL have shortcomings; what I don't agreee with are people who knock something just because they can,or out of ignorance of the subject. though I live with money, and all the trappings it provides, I did spend some time living as Suelo does, years ago. It was only for a few months, just for the experience, but I can now comment on the topic with at least a little bit of an idea of what I'm talking about; can you say the same?? if not, perhaps you should join a debate team somewhere and leave this site to people who appreciate what it's about!And that doesn't require anyone to be a "blind follower"!!

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  157. Lonewolf: I have to say that i view this forum as a constructive conversation and not an arguement.

    To say that i believe that Suelo believes his way to be superior isn't really saying much, as I believe a have a better way, as do you, as does Miguel, as does...............

    If all you found from my postings was that I agree with Miguel then you can't see the forest through the trees.

    I would hope that you also seen that i chose a different route with Miguel and the difference in his posting since doing so.

    Suelo: Is this all you found of interest in my postings? Is that the sum of the total?

    I have to say i am very surprised at your response, i though you would have viewed this to be a conversation, possibly a debate, but i would not have thought a court.

    To debate all of your beliefs, in this forum, would serve no useful purpose. I take from you the things that are useful and inspiring to me. I believe that is what you intended when you created this forum.

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  158. Suelo: I'm interested in hearing about your travel in India if you care to elaborate? I'll be traveling to Dharamsala this winter volunteering with Tong-Len. Did you travel moneyless? If so, i'd love to hear about it. Anything you can think of that would be a "must know" or helpful?

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  159. Suelo,
    You should not feel a need to defend yourself here...as you said, you have already been judged and found quilty(be some), so don't waste your time defending yourself against the self appointed "judge,jury and executioner" types!
    Shane,
    If you think you have influenced Miguel's writings in any way,you are being naive..focus less on converting, and more on serious discussion!! and if you are truly going to volunteer in India,you may want to practice being less judgemental.....it doesn't go well with the spirit of volunteering; and before you ask, yes, I have done volunteer work...with the homeless!! Regardless, I wish you well in India..more people should do volunteer work!!

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  160. Sorry for the typo...it should have said "by some", not "be some"!

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  161. Lonewolf: Have you yourself been judgemental? Is this an open forum only if 100% of comments made are positive toward Suelo? Is it possible that your comments today have sent this forum in a negative direction, again?

    In my mind, i believed i was being both constructive and supportive towards Suelo. It is unfortunate that you seen it otherwise.

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  162. Shane: If I havee been judgemental, it would only have been towards those who feel the need to use this site as a means to spread their own brand of hate and bitterness! and who is making the judgemnet that my comments have had a negative impact on this forum? YOU? Miguel? you are the only ones who seem to have issues with what I say!! pointing out the pros and cons of any issue is healthy, and expected, but that's not to be confused with hate mongering; I can make a point without the need to belittle, or make fun!! an example of what I mean: you adding the word "again" at the end of your first statement to me was not only inaccurate, but a juvenile jab as well.
    And to answer your question; no, I don't think 100% of the comments made here should be positive towards Suelo... as I keep saying, they just don't need to be rude to make a point! I would have thought that you could understand that....perhaps I was wrong!! Oh well, all BS aside, I still enjoy this blog for what it represents to ME!!

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  163. Lonewolf: I'm a little baffled here, where did you see my display of "hate and bitterness; hate mongering;rude;need to belittle, or make fun"? The unfortunate thing about reading vs hearing is there is no emotion, therefore open to interpretation. I believe you've pegged me wrongly.

    I state "again", because i attempted to take this exchange with Miguel in a more positive direction, it seems to accomplish that i also have to attempt to bring YOU that direction as well.

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  164. Lonewolf: I challenge you to re-read my posts in the mindset of a person that admires Suelo.

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  165. Lonewolf:

    If you read the first post of this article you will see I admire Suelo for his wisdom, but don't agree with his narrow-mindedness.

    Suelo answered that very first post with the predictable: "you are rotten, and I am the best and superior." Not very surprising, right?

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  166. Miguel,

    I DID re-read these posts, and if you had done the same, you would have known that Suelo later clarified that he meant to say "we", and not "you", so he wouldn't be accused of singling out ANYONE. and I don't recall reading anywhere, him saying that he is the best and superior. what he DID say whoever, was that he sometimes felt an "eerie camarderie with Miguel" ,not exactly the words of a man who feels superior, are they? what would be "not very surprising" is if you respond to this with a sarcastic remark!!

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  167. Suelo says "eerie camarderie with Miguel". The eerie part says it all, it is condescending and unfair. Isnt' it obvious Suelo thinks he is better than me?. Please let's be honest, Suelo's ego doesn't accept anything less than being better than me. I will admit the same though as I really think I am better than him. Although I doubt Suelo has the honesty to say that.

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  168. Indiana here.

    Miguel/Shane, why do you guys keep on comming to this blog just to bring your BS?
    You've made already your points. How about to start some anti-Suelo website, and keep your evil there?

    Daniel, how have you been? Hope, everything goes fine with you!

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  169. I have to admit that I don't see what's wrong with moneyless living. The vast majority of sentient beings have lived without money for the vast majority of the history of the planet. Why shouldn't a human have the same privledge? Are we to be shackled by the constraints of money simply because we are human? Don't we supposedly possess a level of free will that should allow us to shrug off this constraint? We're supposed to be the dominant species on the planet, yet we don't even allow each other this one privledge that so many other species have!

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  170. It is funny how Suelo and his zealots have branded Shane as some sort of heretic only because he timidly questioned Suelo and tried to understand my point of view. Please, this is beginning to behave like a cult, not an open forum.

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  171. Miguel:
    there are no zealots here, just people sick of reading the BS that is being passed off as intelligent conversation! you were the first to stir the pot, and now you act like the victim? We both know that you say the things you do just to shake things up, and you mix in the occasional bit of decent behavior so you can't be accused of being a complete jerk....but people here are seeing through the ruse! (well, there is one who seems to buy into your game). I try to find something good in you, but you seem intent on alienating everyone, and I'll never understand why you would want to do that; wouldn't it be nice to make some new friends, or do you feel that no one here is good enough for you???

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  172. Daniel,
    where have you been lately?? It's getting about time for a new post, isn't it?? it's always interesting to hear what you have to say!! what do you think about all the recent "comments" here?? Take care out there!!

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  173. Lonewolf:

    I just happen to think different than Suelo. I think commerce, industry and technology are very good for society at large. I also think money is necessary for a modern economy and that banks are essential too.

    I just hate someone as Suelo that makes me feel guilty for my point of view, but I guess that is the idea. We all need intellectual adversaries so our ideas get stronger with time.

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  174. Miguel,

    If your point of view is a valid one,then there would be no reason to feel guilty, though I doubt that making ANYONE feel guilty is purpose of this blog, or any other for that point!! I think you would find people more receptive if you made your point without adding any rude or inflammatory comments!

    You are right that commerce, industry,etc. are good for society AT LARGE! but you seem to disagree with the thought of ANYONE seeking to live as Suelo does...not everyone wants or needs money to survive. native people in this country and other countries have, and in some cases still do, live without a monetary system, and they all seem to do well. so, are all those people wrong because they can,and do, live without money?? just because most of us CAN'T live without an income, doesn't make it wrong for those who CAN!!

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  175. Also I don't agree with the necessity of death. In fact there is a biological life form called Turritopsis nutricula who is potentially immortal, we will learn to be immortal soon.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/4357829/Immortal-jellyfish-swarming-across-the-world.html

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  176. It seems Hydras are immortal too.

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  177. There is already a road map. It's called your heart.

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  178. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

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  179. And welcome back to The Amazing Miguel's I Know It All So You Don't Have To Show.

    Miguel, the studio audience has two questions they've been dying to ask you.

    1. Did you always dream of squatting in a blog comment section and becoming it's self-appointed moderator/guru when you grew up?

    2. Are there any other blogs comment sections where we can read more of your fascinating criticisms and opinions?

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  180. In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response, or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

    If we can resist the urge to respond to trolls, they will lose interest and go away.

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  181. Lonewolf: I find it useless to defend myself to you. I believe you are guilty of "selective reading disorder" and possibly hate mongering.

    I've said to you time and again that I am not against Suelo and infact admire him, but you seem content to continue to paint me otherwise.

    I do not fully agree with Miguel or Suelo! Both make valid points on certain things.

    Since hearing Suelo's story i've implemented some positive changes in my life. But, I will not, and can not, mirror my entire life after Suelo, because I don't agree with him entirely.

    You either get that, or you don't! Either way, Shane's life continues in the manner i feel works best.

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  182. David:

    "Did you always dream of squatting in a blog comment section and becoming it's self-appointed moderator/guru when you grew up?"

    R/ No, it it too boring and demeaning. I do it as a moral duty, but I know it is a lost battle. Know-it-alls can not be enlightened.


    "Are there any other blogs comment sections where we can read more of your fascinating criticisms and opinions?"

    No, because they are not necessary. People that think they know it all don't want to learn. So it will pointless to show you anything unusual. Keep doing the same and thinking the same.

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  183. "I do it as a moral duty, but I know it's a lost battle."

    Hahahahhahaa... I give up, Miguel, you're hopeless. Suffer on to help us see your wisdom, O noble and misunderstood martyr. Verily, that will be your reward in full.

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  184. I am getting tired of teaching the hopeless. I am afraid a tree or even a rock would be a better student.

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