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Friday, September 25, 2009

Refining Fire

I'm sedentary in Moab & it doesn't look like I'm going anywhere for a good while, except for a trip to Colorado for a couple weeks to my brother's cabin. I'm hoping to leave within the next few days.

The BBC interviewed me (on the Equinox) for the program, "Outlook," which might air sometime next week. They told me they'd let me know for sure when. Hopefully I can post when it is scheduled. Part of me is amazed, in a surreal way, at what's happening, but the other part of me feels it is as natural as the sun shining.

I still have hundreds of emails I haven't even been able to look at, much less answer. So please don't feel slighted if you don't get an answer. I've been asked to house-sit in months to come, so I'm hoping I can eventually read them all & do more writing then. But being at a computer all the time is not my idea of healthy. Life is about loving our neighbors, & our gadgets have tempted us into loving everybody but our neighbors, isolating us from society. It's a strange irony to be going out into the cyber-world to say this. It doesn't do much good to preach to the choir, to talk about techno-isolation with my houseless friends outside this library. Yes, it's tempting for me to get sucked into cyber-isolation even as I write this.

I'm enjoying a sense of community here in Moab, feeling a grand potential here again. I'm liking the idea, more & more, of working with what we already have, of bringing out the moneyless mind of "freely-give, freely receive" that already exists & cultivating it - not separating out & trying to make a community apart from what is here & now. Everything in the universe, no matter how grand & miraculous & unattainable it might seem, begins with the small - with easy, patient steps, using what's already here & now, honed down by the trials of Natural Selection. There's nothing, in fact, that does not come about by small, easy, patient steps, using what's already here& now, honed down by the trials of Natural Selection! If you prefer religious lingo, call Natural Selection the Consuming Fire that burns the dross and leaves the Remnant, the Very Elect. Call it the Cross. The vision of the Grand Glory coming from the Small, Simple Insignificant through the Divine Fire is called the Hope of Faith. And the whole Universe is created right now by this Hope of Faith. Yup, the Seven Days of Creation are Ever Right Now, as sure as the moon waxes & wanes! That which is hopeful in you, in a sea of cynicism & intense pain & horror, understands. Hope, overcome cynicism! But don't condemn cynicism, for cynicism is the Fire that hones you down!

No time to write more, though there are infinite musings on the universe swimming through this noggin. Lots more FAQs, but that'll have to come later.

Time to turn off the damn computer & mingle with flesh & blood neighbors. Care to join me?

388 comments:

  1. Suelo: You are right that everything is here and now. Men have had the dream of immortality since the dawn of civilization. But there have always been sea creatures that don't undergo aging as the Hydras. In 20 years we will have overcome aging too, a little late right?.

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  2. "Cambridge researcher Aubrey de Grey argues that aging is merely a disease -- and a curable one at that. Humans age in seven basic ways, he says ..."

    http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/aubrey_de_grey_says_we_can_avoid_aging.html

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  3. It's strange how people get obsessed with anything but the present. We have been conditioned by the media that our present lives are dull and boring (to sell things). So we must crave what we are not or ever will be. It is truly sad because we are all here right now in the garden and emanating the perfection of existence. But in typical North American style we are "running to stand still". This could only happen in the wealthiest nations of the world. Peace and enjoy the here and now.

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  4. DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!

    In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

    If we can resist the urge to respond to trolls, and it does indeed get very difficult at times, but if we just ignore them no matter what, they will lose interest and go away.

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  5. Daniel,

    A trip to a cabin in Colorado sounds like a good time....you should borrow a camera and take pics to post, I think people here would appreciate it.

    Anonymous,

    I agree... DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!

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  6. I only see two trolls: One is posting the definition of troll, the other troll is lonewolf.

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  7. Craig: Thanks for you kind words. Although you are a little insulting in your words, but I get your point. The present is all we have. However that doesn't mean we should not create a future for humanity.

    If humanity had your attitude we will be still in the Stone Age. We would not have invented language, controlled fire, invented the weel, established civilization, or developed agriculture. Is that bad?. I don't know, I guess it is a matter of perspective.

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  8. Miguel..
    for once in your life, don't be a jerk! they are right, you ARE a troll..the only one here!!

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  9. Miguel get your own blog. You act as if this is your site. You are the perpetual unwanted guest who won't go home. You in fact are making this wonderful site into a negative space. In the immortal words of the moralist, "if you have nothing good to say don't say anything at all." Go away. I cast you out vile demon.

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  10. It is funny you say that trolls go away if they are ignored, but you seem obsessed with me.

    The only way I will go away is you can prove that you are Suelo. Else...

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  11. PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

    This can be a great place to have discussions if they don't get hijacked by the trolls.

    We are already feeding them. Let's try our hardest to stop!

    We can do it! Don't respond NO MATTER WHAT! Even when you can make a point that really scores, you feed them!

    We can do it! I know we can!

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  12. Also I didn't know discussions could be had between people that think alike. I learn something new every day.

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  13. My wife and I think more alike the longer we spend together and we have more and more interesting discussions. The key is to be just different enough and open to seeing a different perspective.

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  14. I recommend you watch this documentary (3 parts):

    Technocalypse: Transhuman 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnQMHl8P5jA

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  15. It seems that society has the message that we should live in the present when it comes to obtaining immediate gratification (spending money), and patiently await a future of monetary prosperity and stability. The trouble is that the monetary prosperity and stability rarely come. I suspect that this is why so many working class, down-troden individuals vote Republican- they believe that at some point they will be wealthy and they don't want want taxes to be high when that happens. Never mind the fact that the odds are against them becoming wealthy. (Moreover someone with a 6 figure income who loses 50% of that to taxes is still left with at least as much money as the median household has before paying taxes!) It makes more sense to me to divorce ourselves of our aspirations for material riches and work to build an equitable society that respects individual dignity.

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  16. Good advice, now I will give mine: ¡Become an entrepreneur!.

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  17. This none sense is truly ruining this site. Suelo I think you might consider turnning off the commentary option. This Miguel character is making it into his own peanut gallery and destroying something which used to be interesting and inspirational.

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  18. Becoming an entrepreneur won't do any good if you don't have any goods or services to sell and/or nobody has demand for the goods or services that you do have to sell. The fact of the matter is that you can't get something for nothing and becoming an "entrepreneur" won't guarantee that you get rich any more than buying a lottery ticket will.

    Having said that, I think it makes sense to develop a set of skills that are useful to your community. This will guarantee that you can make a contribution no matter what happens to the economy. It may not make you rich, but you will be a "value added" citizen.

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  19. The problem with Miguel is that he has enough good ideas that he has something to contribute, but intersperses obnoxious remarks with those good ideas. If he was just a foul mouthed jerk, like Dirk Diggler a few posts ago, he would be easy enough to ignore.

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  20. Seriously tranhumanism may be very dangerous. You luddites should think about this scary predictions from Ray Kurzweil's book "The Singularity is Near (2005)":

    2045: The Singularity

    * $1000 buys a computer a billion times more intelligent than every human combined. This means that average and even low-end computers are vastly smarter than even highly intelligent, unenhanced humans.
    * The Singularity occurs as artificial intelligences surpass human beings as the smartest and most capable life forms on the Earth. Technological development is taken over by the machines, who can think, act and communicate so quickly that normal humans cannot even comprehend what is going on. The machines enter into a "runaway reaction" of self-improvement cycles, with each new generation of A.I.s appearing faster and faster. From this point onwards, technological advancement is explosive, under the control of the machines, and thus cannot be accurately predicted.
    * The Singularity is an extremely disruptive, world-altering event that forever changes the course of human history. The extermination of humanity by violent machines is unlikely (though not impossible) because sharp distinctions between man and machine will no longer exist thanks to the existence of cybernetically enhanced humans and uploaded humans.

    [edit] Post-2045: "Waking up" the Universe

    * The physical bottom limit to how small computer transistors (or other equivalent, albeit more effective components, such as memristors integrated into Crossbar latches) can be shrunk is reached. From this moment onwards, computers can only be made more powerful if they are made larger in size.
    * Because of this, A.I.s convert more and more of the Earth's matter into engineered, computational substrate capable of supporting more A.I.s. until the whole Earth is one, gigantic computer.
    * At this point, the only possible way to increase the intelligence of the machines any farther is to begin converting all of the matter in the universe into similar massive computers. A.I.s radiate out into space in all directions from the Earth, breaking down whole planets, moons and meteoroids and reassembling them into giant computers. This, in effect, "wakes up" the universe as all the inanimate "dumb" matter (rocks, dust, gases, etc.) is converted into structured matter capable of supporting life (albeit synthetic life).
    * Kurzweil predicts that machines might have the ability to make planet-sized computers by 2099, which underscores how enormously technology will advance after the Singularity.
    * The process of "waking up" the universe could be complete as early as 2199, or might take billions of years depending on whether or not machines could figure out a way to circumvent the speed of light for the purposes of space travel.
    * With the entire universe made into a giant, highly efficient supercomputer, AI and human hybrids (so integrated that, in truth it is a new category of "life") would have both supreme intelligence and physical control over the universe. Kurzweil suggests that this would open up all sorts of new possibilities, including abrogation of the laws of Physics, interdimensional travel, and a possible infinite extension of existence (true immortality).

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  21. Fortunately he has many critics, among them Bill Joy and Jaron Lanier. This is Jaron's manifesto:

    One-Half of a Manifesto

    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.12/lanier.html

    Why stupid software will save the future from neo-Darwinian machines. (I hope he is right)

    By Jaron Lanier

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  22. Although the law of acceleration has been incredible accurate to predict technological change, so most of us don't know what will happen next...


    Ray Kurzweil: How technology's accelerating power will transform us

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IfbOyw3CT6A&feature=PlayList&p=4903D4337CC9D980&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=22

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  23. Suelo, what do you think of James 4:4? - "You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."

    Yes, loving your neighbor and feeling a sense of community can be a nice thing, but if its truth you are searching for, you will not find it in any community. It lies within in the deep and silent depths of ourselves, and we are not able to access it when we distract ourselves with the constant flux of the world.

    -Gary

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  24. Anonymous: Actually if you have excelent determination, combined with good communication skills and planning skills, you can be a rich entrepreneur with a 90% degree of certainty. If you lack these however a 1-5% would be more appropiate, that is if you are lucky.

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  25. Gary -
    I totally agree with your statement: "[Truth] lies within in the deep and silent depths of ourselves, and we are not able to access it when we distract ourselves with the constant flux of the world."

    Yes, none of us can be born & live in the world Community undistracted until we are first in the silent womb of Water.

    If you look at the context of James 4:4 you bring up - in fact, when you look at the very theme of James - you clearly see what "friendship with the world" really is: love of stuff, & love of the false mind that loves stuff: Greed! Love of illusion! But loving your neighbor as yourself, including loving your ENEMY, is the very essence of Christianity. It is the ability to see and adore your True Self in every human, including the most jaded, selfish greed-head. This is also the essence of Buddhism & Hinduism (the very theme of the Dhammapada & the Bhagavad Gita). If such love is missing, then all our meditation is in vain! Arjuna wanted to go away & meditate, but Krishna told him, no, you must also ACT in the world! You must see yourself in everyone, everywhere,for the welfare of all creatures!
    And, yes, how can I love my neighbor as myself if I don't love myself, know myself, delving into "the deep and silent depths" of myself? How can I then not recognize that my self is your self, that my neighbor is my self? How can I not have com-passion (shared passion) with every creature in the universe? How can I not see that all suffering in the Universe is One Suffering on One Cross, "crucified from the foundation of the world"? How can I then not be in Community? What good is a fetus who never comes out of the womb, with Love never descending upon it like a Dove?

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  26. Suelo, I enjoyed your response, and do agree with the idea of seeing yourself in everyone, and having love for all. It is not a problem to mingle with people, but I do believe true faith in God is never thinking the world should be different than it is right now, and that nothing needs to be changed. If we believe everything is perfect right here and now, it can silent our mind from obsessing over what can be changed or improved and allow us to see deeply within, even in the midst of external events. It's easy to see the perfection deep in the silent depths, but it is a bit harder to see it in the constant flux of light and shadows.

    -Gary

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  27. True. But that acceptance of What Is is the acceptance of change and our NATURAL desire for change & perfection! It is NATURAL to desire the fall of corruption and the rise of justice in society!

    I say this because I know in myself it is repressive to deny my body & mind's desire for change and perfection! No particle in the universe is, or can EVER be, static, nor can it be content in being static! No particle can ever be content with injustice or corruption. To accept What Is is to accept the perpetual need for change & perfection, as well as the perpetual need for decay and death! Only the deluded mind can think anything in the physical universe can overcome death, avoid change, live forever. Only by totally accepting change, by taking up our cross, can we then know the Unchanging, the Deathless, What is the Same Yesterday, Today, and Forever, Who Lives through and beyond the Cross of Change!

    So I say, if your heart wants to see a better world, work for it!!! If your heart is content sitting & accepting, then sit & accept!

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  28. There are many paths up the mountain and just as many on our way back down.

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  29. Suelo, I think I understand and agree with you philosophy at least at the symbolic level. Also I think a fuctional universe will need death, decay and change. Because a perfect universe will probably be boring and unbereable.

    However I prefer to look at death and decay as metaphors and not as biological imperatives. You seem to be ignorant of the exponential progression of information technology and it's relation to medicine, biotechnology and related areas.

    As humans merge with technology, post humans with indefinite lifespans will emerge. Natural humans (luddites or primitive people) will be a minority. Eventually our planet and then our universe will be transformed into a giant supercomputer trasforming all "dumb" matter into intelligent matter.

    So our universe will give birth to an indefinite amount of universes (as real and probably as cruel as ours) that would be simulated by intelligent matter.

    This is inevitable.

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  30. "So I say, if your heart wants to see a better world, work for it!!! If your heart is content sitting & accepting, then sit & accept!"

    I agree with this, except I would add that even if you want change, you have to accept the world, and not become disappointed or too attached to the results of your efforts.

    One of the Buddha's four noble truths is "The condition of all existence is suffering.", and I do believe this to be true, but there does seem to be some extraneous suffering that could be alleviated if people went back to a simpler way of life.

    -Gary

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  31. One Buddhist concept is to be "In the world but not of it." This sounds a lot like what Gary and Suelo are discussing. To me this means actively participating in the world to make it a better place, but avoiding attachment that would compromise that work.

    -Rett

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  32. So isn't there the possibility that intelligent non-biological matter would develop a certain level of compassion for biological life to allow it to live unmolested? Many people on this planet already feel that we have used technology to overstep our bounds and encroach too much on the natural world. Why shouldn't intelligent machines have the same opinion? If we're talking about the entire universe then wouldn't allocating one planet, or even an entire galaxy, to biological life be a minor sacrifice? How intelligent does a machine intelligence really need to be? (I have an IQ of over 135 and I sometimes feel that it doesn't do me much good other than allowing me to engage in amusing mental exercises like this.)

    Another point: if it's inevitable for the entire universe to become a sentient supercomputer then why hasn't it already happened? Life took quite a while to develop computer technology on this planet, isn't it reasonable to think that it might have happened somewhere else in the past? If that's the case, then why haven't we been overrun by intelligent machines (including, possibly, those from other universes)?

    Of course, there's also the possibility that all of this has already happened and we're living in the star system or galaxy that has been designated as the preserve for biological life forms.

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  33. I think we are living in a computer simulation and that there is no difference between real and virtual. Mystics have said there is no difference between the real world and the world of dreams. I think dreams are a form of virtual reality.

    I think shamans, sorcerers and mystics are hackers. They cheat the system enabling them to mold reality to their desire (with certain limitations). I think the Buddha was a notorious hacker.

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  34. Also I think people with psychic powers are hackers because they can violate the laws of physics. They do what is considered impossible, because they have learned to deceive the system.

    I hate when scientists label this system cheaters as charlatans. Academia have taught this brilliant scientific minds to think the laws of nature can not be broken. Fortunately they are wrong, as any system can be hacked.

    It is a scientific explanation for this anomalous habilities, it is nothing mysterious or esoteric. It is a weakness in the system, a bug, a glitch that can be exploited, plain and simple. In other words it is hacking.

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  35. When we turn this whole universe into a huge super computer we would have cheated the system and become as Gods. The Gods of billions of new Universes. We could visit them and teach them things. I think that is the origin of religions, we have been visitated by our creators in the past. Ufos may be a way of showing their presence I think, it is somewhat a deception.

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  36. This forum is turning into the friggin science channel,with a bunch of people trying to sound more intellegent than the next guy, throwing around 50 cent words, talking about non-biological matter having compassion, UFO's, super-computers replacing people,blending science with religion....what does any of this have to do with one man's desire to live a life without money?? Isn't that what this site is supposed to be about?? and what I find really sad is that you,Daniel, seem to be getting caught up in all this sensationalist BS..don't lose sight of why you are doing what your doing..the computer makes it way too easy to get sucked back into the life you claim to despise, so be careful my friend!!and for all those who feel a need to bitch and moan about what I just wrote, proceed with the knowledge that it will mean nothing in the long run!!

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  37. Indiana here.

    I don't care for the fiction, that follows Suelo's last post. Also, I don't think, Suelo is getting caught into anything.

    Daniel, I have a questions for you:
    I learned already, that you have been raised by christian parents. Is it why you believe the scriptures are word of God? If not, why do you believe the scriptures are word of God? Why do you believe there's God at all? Can you define God?

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  38. I'd like to apologize for engaging in the science fiction type speculation. However, I do feel that the subject is somewhat relevant because Suelo's lifestyle involves picking and choosing among a huge number of different types of technology available in a society that is in love with technology- especially computer technology. I believe that Miguel's predictions about the proliferation of computer based intelligence are overblown (for the reasons I outlined in the earlier post), but I fear that as mainstream America becomes more dependent on technology, those of us who don't embrace the latest gizmo will be marginalized and possibly even discriminated against. Labelling people who aren't in love with technology as "Luddites" is the beginning of this discrimination simply because it implies differences between people.

    The risk of being marginalized because we don't embrace the latest technology is something that those of us who value simplicity will have to contend with more as time goes on.

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  39. Speculation is great for developing creativity. But I agree that Ray kurzweil's predictions are overblown. However the exponential progression of technology is incredible.

    If you told a man 20 years ago that used a big and expensive computer that today you will have computers for 1.000 dollars, thousands of times faster, much smaller, with graphical interfaces, easy to use and controlled by a mouse, they would say you were crazy. So I am not so sure how overblown are Ray Kurzweil's predictions for the future.
    I would say the could be right.

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  40. Linear thinking doesn't work for technology. It follows exponential progress.

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  41. I predict that in a near future computers will be smaller than the head of a pin, thousands of times faster, and will be inside your body, as well as embedded everywere outside (walls, floors). Call me crazy if you want, but time will prove you wrong.

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  42. "I agree with this, except I would add that even if you want change, you have to accept the world, and not become disappointed or too attached to the results of your efforts."

    You totally get it, Gary.

    I'm surprised about the comment that I'm about getting sucked into the "sci-fi" discussion, when I've been totally ignoring it, discussing with Gary, so far. Technology is part of our world & must be faced & discussed. But I myself don't care to discuss it in these comments now.

    To Indiana's comment:
    "I learned already, that you have been raised by christian parents. Is it why you believe the scriptures are word of God? If not, why do you believe the scriptures are word of God? Why do you believe there's God at all? Can you define God?"

    I've never either said or denied the scriptures are the word of God. "The word of God" has become a meaningless phrase, rendered meaningless by most of those who espouse it. "God" has become a meaningless word, rendered meaningless by most of those who claim to worship "God", taking that name in vain. Nobody, no mind, no words, can ever define God, if that's even the word you care to use! You either Recognize, or you don't. You either look at Nature & recognize, or you don't. You either read scripture & Recognize, or you don't. You can't convince a baby to be born or convince a goat to become a sheep. They just Are. Recognize in Silence beyond words, beyond images, imagination, idols. These words are fun. NOW forget them all! NOW is when no words exist, except I am who I am.

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  43. Suelo: Do you like to be considered a mystic?. You seem very capable when dealing with metaphors.

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  44. Most people I have known who claim to know the will of god are talking about their own. Using the "word" of their god as a wizard casts spells to illicite reactions. Like a witch doctor putting a hex on an enemy or the benediction of Zeus or Apollo.

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  45. Daniel,
    Is it your intention to only reply to those who stimulate your interest in technology or religion, and ignore those who ask questions about,or comment on your chosen lifestyle! I was under the impression that this site was supposed to be about living without money! religion is something that is too inflamatory to discuss in an open forum(too many views), and technology goes hand in hand with HAVING MONEY, not living without it!! And you ARE getting sucked into all the hype ...you have already sold your "beliefs" for a magazine article, and you have mentioned doing another such article...so much for sticking to your guns,huh! how many magazine articles is your soul worth???

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  46. Indiana here.

    Anonymous above me, relax. Maybe Daniel overlooked your question, if you asked any.
    Criticising him for answering a religious questions, however, doesn't make sense. I asked the questions because Daniel follows Jesus' teaching when it comes to choosing his lifestyle. So one can't completely ignore religion when talking about Daniel's lifestyle.

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  47. Anonymous (Indiana),

    Perhaps your right, maybe I should relax,but this site seems to be more about religion and technology than anything else. one would think that a forum such as this would discuss issues relating to living/trying to live without money:the how,when,where, and why's! that base idea is what I believe draws people here in the first place...you know, "the guy who lives without money", not "the guy who talks about religion", or "that technology guy".

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  48. Technology has a huge transformative potential, as religions do. I think both are important.

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  49. "The Devil can quote scripture to his own ends." Basically, we shouldn't take anyone else's argument as truth without examining it for ourselves.

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  50. Well, I see everyone is still at each others throats here..I was kind of hoping a new posting by Suelo might change the attitude around here! we all just need to calm down and just go with the flow, enjoy this site, and maybe learn to be a little more receptive to our fellow man....no one man/woman here is better than the other!

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  51. Daniel, Just heard your piece on BBC World Service. I am intrigued and have enjoyed reading some of your blogs. I am not yet ready to live in a cave... my wife and children may have something to say about that! (There's a great Lindisfarne song (Alright on the night) that has the line "... and come and live with me in a cave..!") I will be following your progress with interest... Mark

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  52. It is paradoxical. Suelo lives in a cave, but has a college education, uses modern clothes, eyeglasses, and even knows how to use a personal computer for blogging. Ancient cavemen would probably have considered him as a god.

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  53. Carry on soldier...carry on. Sure there are aspects of your lifestyle I can't get on board with...BUT by and large you strike me as extremely well balanced and mentally healthy...much healthier than many people I know. I have thought of doing the same ...at times. Hmmmm.
    May I recommend that you read Plato's book :The Republic ---the most important chapter is called THE Cave (chapter 10?). You will enjoy it. Carry on soldier ...carry on.
    Earnest Thompson
    Seattle

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  54. I love the outdoors too Suelo, but not that much! After hearing part of your series on BBC, I won't complain about having too many odd jobs to do around the house! May God grant you peace.

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  55. Hey Daniel!!! Michelle here, Damian's friend that used to live up at Powerhouse. How are you doll! Sirring up some shit here and there are you? Good man! Someone has to and what better way to do it. I loved your response to the question about mooching, society as a whole are the big moochers for sure. Good answer! (-: Yea, my life is pushing me inward at the moment. I wish I had more time to spend meditating. My world has my head in a spin right now. Much to deliberate. I have a little one now though, so my time table can be a bit unpredictible. He is worth every second though, of course. Get my fb info from Damian if you would like, Many pic's there. Great to see your beautiful face again. I need to get back to Moab. It calls to me everday. I swear it does.
    Much Love, M------

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  56. Indiana here.

    I was able to find Daniel on BBC. Those who are interested, it's at http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/programmes/2009/09/090929_outlook_caveman.shtml

    Daniel, I love your (verbal) english! You are so easy to understand. I feel like I hear my first language when listening to you. I wish everyone in this country spoke that clearly.
    What you told the BBC commentator is not new to me (since I read your FAQ and your blog), so I won't praise you again, at this time ;-)

    I'm guessing, you could be pleasantly surprised to find out how many people would consider to live your lifestyle. Personal circumstances don't allow them, especially those who have kids or other serious commitments.

    Make sure you let me/us know, should your future plans include Indiana. It would be a pleasure to meet you!
    Wishing you good health and lot of enjoyment in your life!

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  57. hi Daniel! I loved the interview, and felt it captured the essence of what you're doing. How did you feel about it? I've always admired your courage and discpline in living the life you live....it's a real beacon of hope that a different life is possible. THANK YOU. Martha Little (now living in Granada Spain.)

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  58. Hey, sorry - don't feel slighted if I pass over your questions! There are SO many & I can't spend much time at the public computer. Please check out the FAQ, also.

    e thompson - "coincidently" I JUST found an antique copy, in perfect condition, of Plato's Republic in a dumpster! Always wanted to read it, & now you confirm it.
    Michelle!! So good to hear from you! Can't wait to hook up again.
    Martha!! ditto (though it hasn't been so long)!
    Makes me tickly happy.
    I've always felt very nervous about radio interviews. But this time I didn't at ALL! I felt very good about it. Of course, it was reduced way down - missing important things, as expected; it's the nature of media.
    I will not pretend - it's very enjoyable being heard, especially after a lifetime of the seed being under ground. And the negative judgments (both valid & not valid), & the venom, are, strangely, starting to make me leap for joy... finally.

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  59. Suelo: Consider that you live in a computer simulation. That would provide a rational explanation for your synchronicities. But also would devalue your wild nature lifestyle because it could be argued there is no such thing as wild nature because it is simulated.
    There would be no difference between artificial and natural, between real and virtual.

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  60. I must say for a guy who wants to reject the world and the money, technology and modern conveniences the modern world offers, you spend a huge amount of time with the media, Suelo.

    I think if you were true to your proposed way of life you'd eschew things which came from the fruits of others' labor and make do only with that you can provide with your own hands, or harvest from the earth.

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  61. Daniel,
    I was able to listen to your BBC interview, and though it was brief,it was still interesting. keep doing what works for you, and disregard the nay-sayers! take care out there!!

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  62. This whole thing is so typical of the American West and its contemporary culture. The first problem is the evangelical so-called Christian upbringing. There are so many American people and families who hold onto that kind of thing as a psychological crutch, when what they are practicing bears little relationship to Christianity. The whole mindset of "seceding" from society begins there -- with the evangelicals' notions of "family values", "home schooling", etc. I bet they also believe strongly in guns and arming themselves to the teeth. You have not integrated into American society because American society has failed to provide the proper and humane environment for a person to flourish in. So there will be 'outliers' like you who will completely drop out, under the stress and strain of so-called 'normal' day-to-day life... paying bills and rent, avoiding bankruptcy, etc. All the mercenary "structures" of American contemporary society. What Americans believe is "Christianity" is actually the opposite of Christianity. As for you, Daniel, I believe you would much rather live in a house, eat regular meals of cooked food, and enjoy all the other benefits of civilized or semi-civilized life. No, we do not need all the "opulence" (as you call it) that American society offers. But every human being would rather sleep in a bed than on a cave floor. Every human being would rather fall asleep with a partner they love, rather than the bugs and mice that scurry around the cave. You have opted out of our conformist society that dictates that in order to have a home and regular meals, one must work 5 days a week. Since we do not live in a socialist society, where jobs are provided for everyone, but instead in a "libertarian" capitslist society where business rules, some outliers like you, even intelligent and literate ones (like you) will slip through the cracks and become high-tech hermits, wired to the internet through a public library, but scrounging through dumpsters for your next meal. This is more a commentary on contemporary society, and life in the modern day West of America, than on you as a person.

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  63. Dear Daniel, I just heard the BBC profile on you. I had never heard of you before tonight. I actually went through the process of deciding that I should change my life and start living without money about three days ago when I saw a BBC documentary on Yellowstone (National Park). It's a four -part series and follows the lives of animals in the park over the four seasons. I started to see that animals have been surviving for eons without money - all they need is shelter and food and though life is tough and they spend most oftheir time looking for food to survive, they also are living their rich lives at the same time. In the meantime we are changing their climate, taking away their habitat etc etc and we are going to utimately end it all for us and for them.
    There has to be a better way. If I don't work, then I don't need a cor, fine clothes, and I certainly don't need plasme TVs or mobile phones etc. FOr me, this whole process of thinking is unnerving becuse if I act on it. it will mean an enourmois change in my life.
    I applaud you and your guts to take this on. Maybe one day I will take the plunge myself and do the same.

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  64. Please watch this documentary (18 parts) about the potential of emerging technologies of transforming the human body and mind:

    Technocalypse 1/18 (Transhuman)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b3PgESmva0&feature=related

    Note: According to futurist and AI expert Ray Kurzweil in 2020 a computer will have the processing capability of simulating all the areas of the human brain, and in 2040 a computer will be able to easily simulate all the human brains in the world. In other words artificial intelligence based on the human brain is the future of life on this planet.

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  65. Joshep, Suelo is only taking what cover his minimum basic human needs (and living worse that many pets live today in society). It's time to recognize that the capitalist western system has failed to provide those basic human need for everyone living on this planet and the negative impact that it's having on the environment. Time to find a new system that provide for all, not only for the privilege few. Miguel, technology is fine when it works for the wellbeing of all. Ana

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  66. Hi Suelo. Have you heard of couchsurfing ?

    I guess you might know about it already, but - in any case - it just occurred to me that you might find it to be a valuable social network.

    Link : http://www.couchsurfing.org/

    There are similar projects, such as bewelcome.org , but couchsurfing has the largest community as far as I can discern.

    regards

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  67. Ana: The Venus Project by Jacque Fresco is an interesting idea of a society build on advanced technology that respects both people and ecology.

    http://www.thevenusproject.com/

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  68. Joseph, I definitely agree that Suelo's choices are an interesting indication of the state of society. I like how you point out that the indignities that we are subjected to in society make sleeping on a cave floor an attractive alternative for some of us. It seems that in a society where there is an increasingly large gulf between the haves and the have-nots, while the expectations that are placed upon us grow increasingly onerous, it's more difficult to find a middle ground. Without the middle ground of being able to participate fully in society without begin enslaved by it, those of us who feel compelled to be "conscientious objectors" to that society will likely be forced out of it completely.

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  69. Miguel:

    I fail to see how all of the conjecture about computers replacing humans is relevant to this conversation or the Blog in general. You have accused Suelo of being ignorant about the growth and potential of information technology, but how do you know he is ignorant? More to the point, how would you expect enlightenment in this area to change his perspective?

    It seems to me that he is taking the initiative and making the effort to live his life in a way that's true to his beliefs. That seems better than waiting for a conjectured technology facilitated salvation or end of human existence.

    Ken

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  70. People always mention the enlarging gulf between the haves and the have-nots. It shows their ignorance of the evolution of economic systems. Some centuries ago landlords had incredible wealth and absolute power over their slaves. Nowadays the richest men are less powerful and don´t have much control over their workers.

    In short study a little bit before talking.

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  71. jim said...

    you guys should look into wabi-sabi, this
    is the lifesytle that suelo is living.

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  72. Anonymous 8:03

    Interesting observations. Ronald Reagan said most homeless people were homeless by choice, so should be left alone. I disagree. I think most people, by far, would rather have a dwelling of baseline comfort -- not fancy, but a "humane" place to live.

    A lot of it has to do with allocations of land and our "libertarian capitalist" real estate market in the USA. Interestingly, in most advanced countries in Western Europe, like Germany, city governments set aside large tracts of land for "squatter developments" where tiny houses are built to house homeless people and families. These houses look like typical single-family homes, but on a much smaller scale; with roofs, windows, doors, outdoor gardens, etc. Only in a society where governments set aside land for this specific purpose can this really be achieved. In the US, everything is "market-driven" which means capitalistic, so this kind of arrangement is damn near impossible. To get elected, city council and county commission members have to "toe the line" and pledge fealty to the "free market system" which means allocating essentially every last parcel of land to the highest bidder.

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  73. Ken: If Suelo thinks that this weak, fragile and mortal biological body and our highly inefficient biological computer (brain), are all that life has to offer, then I can understand that. However I think future technology has the potential for much more than that.

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  74. Joseph: Nanotechnology we will solve poverty and hunger in the world. However we will need goverment intervention to allocate land for the homeless, because you can´t build houses in the air with nanotech.

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  75. Whoa, somebody really needs to get their own blog and stop ranting to themselves in Suelo's comment section.

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  76. Impermanence is every second, every minute, every hour, every day. Keep up the living, Keep up the living! Mother Earth is fine, the world is the Titanic.

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  77. Some entertainment for Suelo, and a challenge:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMcfUjIguSs

    Sammy Davis, Jr. was an entertainer par excellence. No other entertainer in the 20th century combined his talent, grace, suave moves, love of performing, and seriousness about his stage-craft.

    Suelo should get a job. Even if the job is that of itinerant dancer, like the "Mr. Bojangles" described in Sammy's song, it would restore his credibility and his integrity as a human being -- and reconnect him with humanity.

    You see, the "Bojangles" described in Sammy's song is a character that is embedded in the American psyche. Bojangles is a man with a deep love of humanity, and a deep connectedness to the world. He has not seceded from the world, but instead, supports himself "for drinks and tips" by rendering performances when and where he can. Mr. Bojangles is an American icon -- as is Sammy Davis, Jr.

    Suelo, like Bojangles, and take his show on the road. If he cannot dance, he can perform in other ways. Jokes, monologues, singing, lectures, sketches -- anything and everything can be the PALLETTE upon which Suelo inscribes his legacy.

    Suelo can make an impact by connecting with humanity, rather than isolating himself in a cave and speaking at a distance by connecting through a library computer.

    Something to think about...

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  78. But Joshep, I and I'm sure many others admire what Suelo is doing, living his talk and transmitting his experience on this blog for us to learn. And thanks for the net, I can hear its message from the other side of the Atlantic. Historically the mystics that have some wisdom to transmit has spend period of time in isolation, prayer, solitude (Jesus spend 40 days in the desert fasting and meditating, Peace Pilgrim what amazing woman!, Dalai Lama, etc. the same, to come up with wisdom message that can save humanity for disaster, the problem is, were/are we really listening? Ana

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  79. Joseph, based on your reccomendation, I think you are completely missing the point of what Suelo is doing. The people of the modern developed world have many problems, but a lack of entertainment is not one of them.

    Also, Suelo is not isolating himself in a cave anymore than we isolate ourselves in our homes. Its just where he calls home.

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  80. Joseph,
    I'm sure if Suelo wanted to be a traveling performer, he would have joined a circus..as Gary said, I think you are completely missing the point of what Suelo is doing!also, I don't see why Suelo should feel as though he needs to "restore his credibility and integrity as a human being"! are you implying that a lifestyle choice such as his impacts a persons integrity,or lessens his credibility amongst his fellow men and women?? That's what's wrong with the this country, anyone who is willing to walk their own path is considered to somehow be inferior to the rest of society...which of course is complete BS; more people should be brave enough to throw off the constraints of society and do what their hearts tell them, and not worry about being considered an outcast!! so, to Suelo, and all those like him, carry on and don't look back!!

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  81. I agree with Joseph, Suelo should do something useful for society.

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  82. It seems most religious gurus and mystics make the mistake of isolating from Society. This makes me remember the late Adi Da, who retreated to an island in Fiji. Or even Buddha who wanted to keep his wisdom to himself, but finally decided otherwise.

    I think Suelo should learn humility. It is arrogance for someone to think that he is better than others, only because he is poor or can make people despise him.

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  83. Joseph, Suelo should get a job?
    Job is good only when you do something that you like to do, and if you have likable people around you. And how many times that happens? To how many people? Honestly! All I remember from my working years is a lot of stress and backstubbing individuals around me.
    Yes, I get lonely on occassions, but the time when I don't feel lonely is well worthy of staying out of any employment!

    Miguel, stop finally searching for wrongs at Suelo. It's taking you too long, and you are heading nowhere.

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  84. Miguel IMHO and basic understanding, the mystics get their knowledge from within and in stillness and silent meditations and contemplations wisdom manifest itself. Fasting and other ascetic practice help, even Gautama the Buddha that recommend the middle way, went through this arduous phase, it helped him in his path to enlightenment. I do believe some people are born with a more intuitive and transcendent nature and one you have reached certain states of conscienceless is a point of not return. What Suelo started as moneyless living experiment, it's evolving into a pure act of faith and trust on the Universal Source, perhaps our way to liberation. Apologies my simplicity of understanding. : ) Ana

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  85. Ana you are right, but it is a double edged sword. In other words maybe you can't separate the good from the bad. So I will forgive your simplicity of understanding.

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  86. Suelo should get over himself.

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  87. Suelo should follow the path of Mr. Bojangles.

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  88. "Better mad with the rest of the world than wise alone."
    Baltasar Gracian

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  89. Miguel,
    You are the one who should "get over himself",you are an arrogant,spiteful,immature
    hateful,ignorant little bastard who needs to go away and stay away!! no one here likes you or wants you here,so stop being a disease ridden troll and leave!!

    to everyone else here, I am sorry you have to read the garbage this jerk spews in this forum..he is like a virus, and the ugly truth is that he knows it and enjoys being the way he is....I picture him to be a sad, little man with no friends, who needs places like this to vent his anger at the world! too bad there isn't a way to block he crap from getting through..just think how nice it would be to read some interesting discusions here without having to see he trash!!

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  90. Anonymous: You should also follow the path of Mr. Bojangles. You are too angry and full of resentment. Also you don't seem very intelligent or mature, so I would recommend you work more on yourself.

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  91. The truth is that Suelo is running from something -- it's either money or people. He thinks he is avoiding money, or at least that's what he would have us think, but actually what he is running from is contact with other people, and that's sad.

    I suggested he follow in the tradition of Mr. Bojangles, as an itinerant entertainer, for a reason. It's a way of reconnecting oneself with other people, with humanity.

    I agree that a world without money would be better, but is it worth estranging oneself from the world of people -- from face-to-face contact with humanity -- just to experience a world without money?

    I would argue that whatever the benefits one gets from living without money, they do not outweigh the disadvantages to the human soul that come from isolating oneself from contact with other human beings. The roots of this isolation are not caused by money, in and of itself (the ancient Babylonians invented money); the roots of this isolation are an attempt to avoid PEOPLE.

    Mr. Bojangles was a humble, unique person who had a Buddhist attitude towards life, although he did not know it.

    Buddha did not preach isolating oneself from other people; he preached a Middle Way, which entails being in and of the world, but not being controlled by it, or rather, not letting it take the reins of your soul.

    This can be accomplished by living in the real world of people, if one is happy with oneself and one's place in the universe. Buddha did not preach eschewing money. He preached living with it, and everything else in the world, while at the same time being in the moment and not letting the world influence your soul.

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  92. Joseph,
    Apperently you have not read all of Suelo's blog posts, or you would know that he has quite a bit of contact with others, during his travels, as well as his trips into town! so, how can you say he is estranging himself from the world of people?? he seems to interact with others on a relatively regular basis,which is good for the soul!!
    Don't tell me that you are going to follow in Miguel's foot steps, and use this forum as a place to rant and rave!! If people do not like what Suelo is doing, then why bother to read his blog, and post comments!

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  93. I don't like what Suelo is doing. Period.

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  94. jim said..

    god bless suelo, he knows about
    true freedom..and is living life
    the way he wants to live it, he's living
    it his own way, I think we are all looking
    for a way out of this crazy civilization, he adapted, he has freedom of body, mind and soul.

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  95. Suelo you are my Hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  96. Lonewolf -- I am sorry if I didn't read many of Suelo's other comments. I was basing much of my understanding of Suelo on the BBC report which I believed gave a fairly extensive picture of Suelo. Now I see Suelo has some contact with humanity.

    However, there are some parallels in this and some other events that are a little bit disturbing, I am sure they are just coincidences, but they are weird.

    Do you remember the "Unabomber"? The Unabomber, Ted Kazsynski, also had a brother who owned a cabin, and he used to sometimes stay in his brother's cabin, as well as the much smaller cabin which he built for himself in Montana.

    I realize that Suelo is not like the Unabomber and that Suelo doesn't seem to have any of that kind of anger or rage.

    Still, I am concerned for Suelo that he does not seek out regular contact with other people. Maybe I am wrong and that is not the way he's living his life. But, ANYTHING -- socializing, volunteer work, work as a handyman just for food (not money), seems to be a more fruitful, directed life than what Suelo is doing.

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  97. I don't get the impression that Suelo is isolating himself from society. Being featured in a documentary, being the subject of magazine articles, and going on air through the BBC is not isolation.

    It also seems obvious that he has occupation: this Blog and whatever he contributes in his daily dealings with the people of Moab. Maybe instead of trying to change him to fit into our vision of the world, we should embrace his uniqueness.

    Finally, like most of us, Suelo is who he is and the rants of people on this Blog won't change that.

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  98. Pray in secret, give alms in secret. Think evil thoughts in secret, steal in secret. A person's real life is what is done in secret, without working for Credit. It can't be blogged and can't be aired in the media. The mind that assumes & speaks assumption as fact can never get it.

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  99. Everything that we think we know is an assumption. Given the weakness of assumptions that you point out, Suelo, we should be quick to ask questions but slow to pass judements.

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  100. It depends what kind of assumptions you are talking about. Anyway we all think our assumptions are facts, so Suelo will never get it neither.

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  101. Miguel:

    A while back you mentioned how mention of "the enlarging gulf between the have and have nots... shows their (the speaker's) ignorance of the evolution of economic systems." In going on to mention the economic disparities inherent in slavery and fuedalism and asserting that things are better now is displaying your own ignorance.

    If you were the one who had done ample studying, you would realize that the passage of time doesn't automtically imply progress. The relative freedom of workers has waxed and waned over the course of human history. Yes workers in the U.S. have more freedom from the rich and powerful than workers did in a feudal system or slavery, but in many ways they have less freedom now than they did a few decades ago. With the unbridled capitalism of the past decade, the rich and powerful have gone to extra steps to consolidate power over their workers. This is evident by the fact that many people in the workforce work more hours and have less job security than they used to.

    To argue that we should be satisfied with things the way they are now because they're better than they were at some arbitrary point in the past is a weak position.

    We are a wealthy society, but what good is that wealth if it isn't used to make life better for as many people as possible? I know that I'm not interested in working and spending and investing my life energy to enable rich people to buy extravagences that I would never care to have myself. I'm not sure what my purpose is, but I know it's not that.

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  102. This song by Guru should be Suelo's theme...

    "So when you think you know the whole
    you don't even know the half" > Guru

    Nobody knows Nobody knows the insides and out y'all
    what I'm goin through Nobody knows what's behind the scenes
    Nobody knows Nobody knows about the hardship and sorrow
    what I feel inside Nobody knows about the dreams.. bout the dreams..

    I'm catchin a flashback of the days when
    my pockets were dry, I only had a few friends
    Those same brothers now my family
    We've been through it all, in this industry
    Mad frustrated, ready to flip
    because the company was playin me like some dumb kid
    Video out and I'm still ridin the train
    Workin and hustlin, no pain no gain
    Now here comes the spotlight, still somethin's not right
    I gotta pay my rent by five o'clock tonight
    Livin on fifty cent noodles
    but I'm playin the game, that the brothers know I'm true to
    Can't let up, although the journey is rough
    Focus on the goal like it's the Stanley Cup
    I gotta play this thing for keeps
    My only stress relief is the hip-hop beats

    Nobody knows Nobody knows, the insides and out y'all
    when I close the door Nobody knows what's behind the scenes
    Nobody knows Nobody knows about the hardship and sorrow
    They try to kill my dreams Nobody knows about the dreams.. bout the dreams..

    Skippin the turnstyles, everyday lifestyle
    Lookin at this world with mad anger cause it's wild
    People thinkin that I'm blowin up
    But they don't understand, the young man is growin up
    Now who you think I should trust?
    Better rely on self, no time for missin the bus
    Fake people, phony characters
    They begin to swarm, so I built up barriers
    to block em out, but they still dwellin
    Makes me wanna just start yellin
    But I play it cool though, cause I'm no fool yo
    See chumps'll always try to break down your flow

    Nobody knows Nobody knows, the insides and out y'all
    what I'm goin through Nobody knows what's behind the scenes
    Nobody knows Nobody knows about the hardship and sorrow
    what I feel inside Nobody knows about the dreams.. bout the dreams..

    No time for misery, no time for empty wishin
    'fridgerator's bare, killin roaches in the kitchen
    Just spent my last on a 40
    to sip away my troubles, now it's worse, cause I'm hungry
    I check my man for advice
    He lent me 20 dollars and we lounged and got nice
    I told him nobody knows about the wack side
    I feel like a slave gettin whipped on my backside

    Nobody knows Nobody knows, the insides and out y'all
    when I close the door Nobody knows what's behind the scenes
    Nobody knows Nobody knows about the hardship and sorrow
    They try to kill my dreams Nobody knows about the dreams.. bout the dreams..

    Nobody knows Nobody knows, the insides and out y'all
    what I'm goin through Nobody knows what's behind the scenes
    Nobody knows Nobody knows about the hardship and sorrow
    what I feel inside Nobody knows about the dreams.. bout the dreams

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  103. I find it interesting that Joseph mentioned Ted Kazsynski "The Unabomber" in relation to Suelo's lifestyle and philosophy of life.

    Apart from the obvious distiction between both, namely that Ted is a criminal and Suelo is an ordinary citizen. It is clear there is more in common than appears to be, at close inspection.

    Kazsynski believed he could destroy industrial civilization by terrorist actions.
    Now I notice how naive he was thinking his violent actions were going to spawn a revolution to end the development of tecnology. A similar naive thinking is seen in Suelo, as he thinks this blog is going to have a significant effect on the workins of insdustrial and commercial society.

    I rememeber reading about the "wild life" lifestyle of Kazsynski and it is not very different from Suelo's, except he cultivated his own edible foods.

    I have found something very interesting that seems contradictory, because it is normally thought that being a pessimist is the same as being a realist. Nothing could be further from the truth, however, as pessimists like Kazsynski or Suelo can be incredibly naive. Also it is possible to be realistic and also very optimistic.

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  104. Miguel wrote:
    "A similar naive thinking is seen in Suelo, as he thinks this blog is going to have a significant effect on the workins of insdustrial and commercial society"

    What would make anyone think, Suelo writes his blog for "a significant effect on the industrial and commercial society" ??
    Miguel, your continuous attempts to discredit Suelo are too obvious.
    Not to mention your comparing Suelo with terrorist (Theodore John Kaczynski)!
    Miguel, the flaws in your thinking are so obvious, that they qualify you as a psychiatric patient...

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  105. Don't you want to just sit in a bar for 1 hour and catch a ballgame have a COLD BEER and maybe buy a nice lady a drink ?

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  106. Hey, y'all: If you're new here, maybe you haven't figured out by now that don Miguel is a caricature creating debate for the sake of debate. It's kind of fun & silly & ends up engaging both ire & discussion, as much as folks might not want to admit it. If you don't want the debate, don't engage with the caricature.

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  107. Realism is neither optimistic or pessimistic. Optimism and pessimism are value judements. Realism is simply an attempt to see the world as it really is, without judgement. We would all be mentally healthier if we aspired to realism without the judgement.

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  108. Suelo: I have never met a caricature as intelligent and wise as myself. I learn something new every day.

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  109. Anonymous: You state that my attempts to discredit Suelo are too obvious. Are you attempting to insult my intelligence?.

    Since when having obvious flaws in my thinking qualify me as a psychiatric patient?. You would make a terrible psychiatrist.

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  110. I think Miguel is being too hard on Suelo, calling him arrogant and things like that. However, Miguel does bring up some good points, and I think if we want to be honest about ourselves, we should consider them.

    The problem I have with Suelo is that I think he is a bit confused about why he really wanted to retreat from society, or from civilization. He critizes our current society, but what prescription does he have to eliminate the inequities in it? Retreating back to a Stone Age existence? That is a weak "solution", and I would even say that it could be the solution of a coward. A person who is afraid of real, extended, long-term interactions with other human beings, and being socialized to the point where he actually has to work at a regular job -- i.e., be productive.

    The real solution for the ills of society is to deal with capitalism and reform our economic system, not to retreat to a primitive existence. When we retreat to primitive existences, we are really retreating from being human beings, because not being impelled to root through the refuse of other animals is indeed what sets us apart from animals.

    I freely admit it, I am too proud to do that. I love myself and love humanity and the people around me too much to do that.

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  111. Joseph, I recommend you watch this documentary (18 parts) about the potential of emerging technologies of profoundly transforming humanity and our planet:

    Technocalypse 1/18 (Transhuman)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_b3PgESmva0&feature=related


    P.S
    I would be surprised if after watching the documentary, you still believe returning to the Stone Age is the solution of a coward.

    The future (20 to 36 years) is going to be very transformative for human civilization.
    Watching it from our current technological development can be either positively surprising or horrifying.

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  112. I don't know if I have time to watch an 18-part documentary about "Technocalypse", Miguel -- there are many videos on the internet about things like that, and most of them are made by very opinionated people with a specific political agenda or axe to grind.

    I have a question, though -- how do you see Suelo as "arrogant"? I can understand maybe "naive".

    My problem with this whole lifestyle of retreat from civilization, is I think it is selfish. When one makes a decision to live like that, one is also making a decision not to productively contribute one's labors to other people.

    How is Suelo using his talents to help other people? How is he helping the poor? He is obviously a very intelligent person. And yet he has decided to hoard his talents and not to help his fellow humans in any way. (I do not see him as any kind of prophet who is preaching a real philosophy. On the contrary, I see him as a person who has made a selfish decision to retreat from humanity because of his own psychological weaknesses in not being able to deal on a day-to-day basis with humanity, and then, he is trying to justify that particular thing by dubbing it a "philosophy".)

    That is a kind of weakness, not really arrogance, I think.

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  113. Technocalypse released in 1999, is actually very balanced, it shows the benefits and perils of advanced technologies.

    On the other hand, I think you make a very interesting analysis of Suelo. I agree he is selfish as he is very independent.

    But don't you notice that being selfish and being arrogant are very related?. You can't have one without the other.

    Honestly I don't think that is necessarily bad. As I think most great men like Caesar, Jesus or Buddha were both selfish and arrogant. Please don´t mistake selfishness with petty selfishness, the latter being common in narrow minded men.

    I have a theory in fact that states: to be a great altruist you need to be a great egotist. As an example, Gandhi was very selfish and at the same time very altruist. You can not have one without the other.

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  114. Miguel, is "Suelo" even his real name? It sounds like too much of a coincidence, because as you know, "suelo" means something like "alone" in Spanish.

    Let's say I owed $100,000 on my credit cards and didn't want to go through the trouble of declaring bankruptcy, and just didn't want to pay the debts?

    Couldn't I just disappear one day and go into a cave? Create an alias, use a different name and two years after disappearing come out with a blog?

    Hundreds of thousands of people disappear every year without explanation. They just vanish. So if someone decided to intentionally vanish for some reason, would that one person's disappearance ever be linked to the "new" person who suddenly appeared living in a cave, with a public blog?

    I'm not saying Suelo did this or anything, but wouldn't that be at least theoretically possible? And, at least, a theoretical explanation for this?

    Even stories about a brother with a cabin could be made up. Who would know whether it's true or not?

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  115. Suelo means "soil" in spanish while solo means alone in spanish.

    Finishing my past post: To have great humility you need great arrogance. Most people have petty humility and of course petty arrogance.
    Arrogance and humility are one and the same.

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  116. "Soil" is arguably even more of a coincidence, because he is in fact "living close to the soil".

    So -- is this his real name, or an alias?

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  117. I would bet it is his real name. But who knows...maybe you are on to something there.

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  118. “For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."


    Joseph:

    Watch El Topo and The Holy Mountain by Alejandro Jodorowsky. These are great sacred film of the process of awakening.

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  119. In the Bible, Daniel also lived in a lion's den -- which by most accounts, was a cave.

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  120. Interesting correlations Joseph. I think Suelo is a highly powerful individual, as all those coincidences point to a very meaningful way of life.

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  121. I am a very powerful individual too, although petty minds have some problems in grasping it.

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  122. Joseph and Miguel,
    You two come here and bitch and moan about Suelo, even going as far as offhandedly accusing him of running/hiding from something or someone, and questioning his true identity..what a crock..you two are made for each other, or, the argument could be made that since your garbage sounds so much alike,and your posts so close together time wise, that you may be one and the same...posing as two people to keep the trash flowing. who knows and who really cares..one or two, it's all garbage people are sick of hearing. it's a shame you have to come here and soil this site!!

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  123. I'm only speculating, but I know in India people change their name when choose a new spiritual path (I've got some friends that have changed their name about 2 times and now I never get their names correct,: )). Whatever if Suelo has intentionally change it or it's his real surname, what by the way, means "surface of the earth, ground, floor, pavement" in Spanish. If his name it's an act of humility (that what it sounds when first hear about Suelo) or predestination? Whatever ways it just suit him perfectly. Please let us know Suelo.

    BTW, what Suelo is doing is extremely hard choice, and could be risking his life if we didn't know has been several years living like that, the fact that he intentionally make himself "homeless" and "poor", make it more intriguing. Much respect for you Suelo. Ana

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  124. Well, I for one did hear Mr. Suelo's interview w/ the BBC; he was very well-spoken, which is why I looked-up his blog. I anticipated he may have some discussions like this going on.

    Something about the young man impresses me. For example, I respect his willingness to ditch the gadgets and interact with real people; he thinks that sitting at a computer too much is not healthy or natural and he's right.

    Also, in his BBC interview, he made a classic observation about reactions to his current persona, his philosophy, by so-called Christians. (Like Mr. Suelo, I have been raised Christian in a middle-class family, so I know what I'm talkin about.) Understandibly, he was put-off by how some of his Christian observers leap from their seats to viciously condemn his program, going out of their way to elevate their attack to the personal. His point was that such people, in the narrow context of discussing Suelo, were ignoring some basic tenets of Christianity such as "care for the poor", and "put your neighbor before yourself". His post-interview blog post suggests that a Christian should do these things without great fanfare and attention to oneself.

    If Suelo is adopting other personas in the commentaries to this blog, like some of the followers suggest, then he's doing it for amusement. In his interview, Suelo's message was clear and direct: by living without money, he's tapping on the heart muscle of our modern capitalist system, and that disturbs us. He is setting an example for a ruly "alternative" life-style.

    Some of his followers seem like the very sort of unhealthy people he referenced in his interview; hammering away at their gadgets, spewing their own reality all over his program; desperate to convince us how "right" they are about how the world should be viewed.

    I'm going to get off my machine now, and my soap box, and, inspired by Suelo, grab me some healthy living. Only problem is that I'm going to have to spend some money to do it...

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  125. You mean, maybe we, the participants on this web site, are actually Suelo, adopting different identities? Maybe he is trying to create controversy to increase "hits" to this site, so he can sell advertising?

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  126. I haven't seen any advertising on Suelo's site. I don't see how Google makes any money off of it.

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  127. Then Joseph/Miguel, if you doubt so much about Suelo's intentions, why are you still here wasting your precious time? Ana

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  128. 3 observations:

    1. The fact that Miguel will talk about the merits of humility in one post and brag about his intelligence in another post makes it likely that he is a caricature.

    2. In earlier Blog posts, Suelo goes by Suelo, aka Daniel Shellabarger. I haven't been able to glean the origin of the name Suelo.

    3. Timothy Flynn: You refer to Suelo as a young man, but I'm guessing that he's older than you. While some of us get softer and more set in our ways as we get older, the passage of time compels others to try new things. I'm in my 30's now and I know that I find contemplation of Suelo's lifestyle more compelling and less frightening than I would have in my early twenties. (If I had known it was possible before I made commitments to family and career, I probably would have done it myself! As it is, I'd like to see how much of his lifestyle I can integrate into my own even with current circumstances.)

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  129. The think is anonymous 8:23, the grass always looks greener in the otherside. We have family commitments too and we could never follow fully Suelo's steps, but as you say we could integrate some of the aspect of Suelo lifestyle into our own, like simplifying our lives, be less dependent on money, voluntary work, etc. or perhaps what we need is a family living moneyless as a model first. Ana

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  130. Timothy and Ana,
    it is so refreshing to read a post that isn't anti-Suelo, or full of ignorance..thank you both!!

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  131. Ana,
    I think what you said about needing a family living moneyless as a model for those with families, is a great idea, but the only problem I can see with someething like that, is that "family" suggests children and the government would NEVER allow children to live that way..the parents would be arrested for "child abuse", and the children sent to foster homes "for their own good"!! hell, the government complains when parents simply want to homeschool their children, can you imagine the looks on their faces if they found out a family has decided to try and live a moneyless lifestyle?? you see, we are supposed to conform to societies rules, not "buck the system"...or at least that's what they expect!
    So, who is really living well...the "sheep" who live thier lives as society dictates, or the Suelo's of the world,living as they choose?? hell, I think Suelo should conduct a class..."How to be moneyless, AND happy"!
    Keep at it Daniel, and know you are doing what others want to do, but fear trying!!

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  132. Lonewolf - with all due respect to you and Ana, the government in the USA lets children live that way all the time. According to this advocacy organization, 1 out of every 50 children in the USA -- about 1.5 million children -- are homeless:

    http://www.homelesschildrenamerica.org/

    The government would only intervene in certain very restricted situations, e.g., where:

    1) The parents obviously have the means to support and provide for the children, but choose not to. In other words, if the parents have jobs and/or a bank account, a court in the US could appoint a court-ordered guardian to make arrangements to seize money from the parent's accounts, "garnish" money from their paychecks, or sell their property to provide for the children; the children might be placed in a foster home;

    2) For that to happen, the parents must have some assets, and someone must formally report the parents to the authorities.

    Even then, if the authorities in that place are overwhelmed with such cases, they may do nothing.

    But, in a case where the parents are dirt poor and destitute, the children may end up moving around from shelter to shelter, or just live out on the streets, or in cars, or under a bridge, or something, with the parents.

    We have so much homelessness in America, it is not a funny issue or one that can be taken lightly, and that is why my contention is that, originally, Suelo probably did not make a voluntary choice to become homeless, but was forced into homelessness because of sudden economic circumstances.

    The fact that he now advocates that lifestyle is an ancillary point. Certainly there are some virtues to having a minimal impact on the environment, and not being a glutton, as are many Americans. But the downside of this, of course, is that one falls into isolation from other human beings, and does not contributes one's talents (assuming one has talents) towards a greater good.

    It is all relative, and raises many more questions about life than it answers.

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  133. "The fact that Miguel will talk about the merits of humility in one post and brag about his intelligence in another post makes it likely that he is a caricature."

    Humility also means recognizing your virtues, not only your shortcomings.

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  134. There's a big difference between recognizing your virtues and bragging about them. This goes back to realism vs. pessimism or optimism. Being humble is being realistic, and the reality is that if you are intelligent (or unintelligent) it will come across in your posts. You don't need to shout it from high.

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  135. Suelo labeled me a caricature. Whatever that means, I doubt it was meant to signify someone intelligent or wise. And I found that paradoxical.

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  136. Ana,

    You have an excellent point that "the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence." The fact of the matter is that life is life no matter what you choose to do with it. Given that, I believe meaning in life comes from figuring out how to live our lives in such a way as to do the least harm possible while providing the most benefit possible. In order to do this we need to ask ourselves if the situations we come in contact with are improved by that contact. If so, we're successful as far as I'm concerned. Note that this criterion provides considerable latitude for how we approach life. For instance, I feel that my situation has improved for having encountered Suelo's philosophy. This, to me, indicates that Suelo's approach to life is successful in this instance.

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  137. Some more thoughts on humility: Arrogance and humility are not one and the same. Dictionary definitions indicate that they are antonyms.

    However, some people will perform generous acts in order to feed their own egos and/or gain the recognition of others.

    Humility to me, means contribution without the expectation of recognition. That's why I choose to contribute to this discussion under an anonymous profile- I want my statements to stand or fall based on their on merit rather than their association with me.

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  138. "Some more thoughts on humility: Arrogance and humility are not one and the same. Dictionary definitions indicate that they are antonyms."

    Wow, what a great contribution. I am impressed at how smart you are. And thank you for your humble contribution without the expectation of recognition.

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  139. Miguel,

    I was simply using my own approach as an example. Those who like it are free to imitate it. Those who disagree with it are free to reject it. I feel that my approach is a good one because I believe if others follow that example, the world would be a better place. I recognize that I may be wrong, but it's the best I have to go on right now.

    I suspect that you don't give much of a thought to what kind of example you are setting. You don't think about the impact you're having so long as it's frustrating and confounding to others. (Again, I may be wrong but this assessment seems reasonable given what I have read of yours so far.)

    The real measure is: Would the world be a better place if people followed your example? Would you like to live in such a world?

    These are rhetorical questions. I don't expect a straight answer because I don't expect you to take any of this to heart, but I feel compelled to articulate my thoughts on this in case anyone else could benefit.

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  140. Anonymous at 7:52 pm,

    Well said, and I have to agree with your assessment of the situation with Miguel.

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  141. You can not ask a genius to have the same moral standards of an idiot (these only have to stay in line).

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  142. As corrupt or unethical that money is, it's still the fundamental staple of our society. I suggest you continue your way of life, however, donate to charities, become a force of righteous, rather than a passive viewer in a slowly evolving epoch. Imagine all of the good that can become of money for the destitute and diseased. Donate to health organizations, for cures of common ailments, or std's. Help children without an education, promote literacy among the uneducated. Your disposition of life is tranquil, however : slowly paralyzing and inexorably passive. Like you had said, you only have one life, make an impact.

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  143. I would recommend you donate to these pioneering institutions on emerging technologies: SIAI - The Singularity Institute for Artificial Intelligence (Friendly Artificial Intelligence), Foresight Institute (Nanotechnology), SENS - Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence(Life Extention) or Alcor (Cryonics).

    Donating to the poor in Africa or to Greenpeace can be a waste of money because of bureaucracy. Unless you take matters into your own hands, that is. So I think it is wiser to invest in future tecnological developments as they hold more promise for solving society's problems.

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  144. Indiana here.
    Cbankord, please, stop the donating issue.
    Have you ever taken a closer look where the donated money goes?
    Anything from 0 to 10-15% goes to the advertised purpose (the cause of charity), the rest goes to charity employees, and for running charity ads.
    http://smashmybrain.com/archives/articles/cgo.html
    http://greatearthnews.com/charity-&-non-profit/10-things-you-should-know-before-donating.php
    http://www.somaliawatch.org/archivejun02/021114202.htm

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  145. Donations should go to scientific research.

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  146. Mohammed said you can know God through Science. I think he was right, our religion now should be Science, not those other obsolete religions.

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  147. I agree about the donation issue. It's important to make sure that you donate (your time, goods, money) to the right charity and when I mention voluntary work, make sure you'
    re working for the right charity. Recently I've learnt that one of our local charities provide holidays abroad for the volunteers, what I think it's lavish, missing the point and not fair on people that give the donations. Ana

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  148. ... and of course not fair on people who need the donations. Not always I've been a supporter of voluntary work, since I always thought if more people volunteer it will be less work for the unemployed, and it can be abused by employers too. But now I see it as a preparation/transition towards a moneyless society. Actually, I read somewhere that there are more people on voluntary work than in proper employment. I, personally, give some of my time to a charity in exchange from some goods, and I donate all my unwanted stuff to them, and other local people benefit directly. Ana

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  149. I sometimes think that if I find myself without anyone depending on me, I'd like to take up a lifestyle somewhat like Suelo's and combine it with seeing how I can help people. Just "wander the Earth" and see where I might be able to lend a helping hand while trying to minimize my negative impact. I think that might be a popular retirement alternative for people in India.

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  150. Cajun Joe asks, who can tell?

    Ecc 6:12 For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?

    Ecc 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart discerneth both time and judgment.

    Ecc 8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.

    Ecc 8:7 For he knoweth not that which shall be: for who can tell him when it shall be?

    Ecc 10:14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?

    Jon 3:9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

    1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.

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  151. To many folks above: Maybe I do service, maybe I don't. It's not my business to say.

    Everybody assumes, which is natural. But why state assumptions as fact?

    "Freely give, freely receive," is the whole whole point of this. Freely give means giving not for credit (money, praise, price). Freely give means service not for credit. It means service done in secret. If I do service and advertise it, it is no longer free, no longer true service.

    I don't want to discourage sending money to the poor. But be aware of how we send money to the poor while at the same time we feed the root that causes the poverty. It can be like pruning the branches while cultivating the root.

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  152. Why not become an Artificial Intelligence programmer?.

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  153. Suelo: "I don't want to discourage sending money to the poor. But be aware of how we send money to the poor while at the same time we feed the root that causes the poverty. It can be like pruning the branches while cultivating the root."

    R/ Yes, I agree. Our obsolete technology is what causes poverty. Nanotechnology, Artificial Intelligence and Virual Reality will solve those problems for everybody soon. So I recommend you give 10% of what you earn to scientific research.

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  154. Miguel,
    what is your damage?? nanotechnology? artificial intelligence? virual reality? what the hell does any of this have ti do with this forum?? nothing, that's what!! no wonder so many people here despise you (according to all the previous posts)..you waste so much space here, You are a waste! take the hint...go away, leave this site to people who care about what Suelo is doing!! it's probably a good thing that your real name is not known....I imagine others would do you harm!!!!!!!!!!

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  155. Good lord, this is beginning to sound like a cult.

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  156. Miguel,
    For this to be a cult, people would have to devote themselves to Suelo! people here may admire Suelo for what he is doing, but that's no where near the same as devoting themselves to him.so, if you must post here, at least be intelligent about it....and posting about things like "nanotechnology",does not make you smart, it just makes it look like your TRYING to be smart, and failing!! do everyone a favor and stick to the topic of this forum!

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  157. I believe people should give their money for scientific research not only in Nanotechnology, but also in AI and Life Extension. These technologies really have the potential for solving many problems.

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  158. Miguel --

    You were telling Suelo a while back to give his money to research in Nanotechnology. Well, we already know that Suelo has no money. That's the point of this blog, isn't it?

    Besides, you haven't mentioned one problem that this Nanotechnology can solve. Can it solve human hunger? I don't see how. Matter can neither be created nor destroyed. It doesn't simply spring into existence, like those food-making machines on Star Trek.

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  159. Life Extension? You mean so that we can all live longer and overtax this planet's limited resources even more?

    The point here, as I see it, is to simplify in order to solve problems, not overburden ourselves and our biosphere even more.

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  160. Nanotechnology proponents argue we can solve the energy problem by creating higly efficient nano-engineered solar panels. This way we will end our energetic dependence on oil.

    At long term it is expected that poverty and hunger will be solved by advanced nanotechnology. The Universal assembler may play some part for that purpose.

    From Wikipedia:
    "A universal assembler is a construction machine that manipulates and builds with individual atoms, molecules, or other units, originally studied by John von Neumann who is also known for his work on universal computers. Assemblers capable of making any object are called universal assemblers. Just like the universal computer, the universal assembler need not have a definite architecture. This device theoretically makes complete copies of itself given raw materials and energy, like an automaton. However, functions would not be limited to self-replication. Possible applications of universal assemblers are only limited by what the universal computer can instruct/generate. One of the goals of long-term nanotech research is the production of programmable self-replicating, universal assemblers. As for self-replication, see the von Neumann probe designs as well as cellular automata."

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  161. And for understanding Life Extension, I recommend you watch this conference from one of it's most prominent researchers, Aubrey de Grey:

    Why Fight Aging?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDr6YHciArQ&feature=related

    Or visit his foundation web site:
    http://www.sens.org/

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  162. Miguel might be putting too much stock in the capabilities of nanotech. From what I understand, it has a lot of potential, but Miguel is probably thinking of science fiction type applications of it rather than the more subtle things it can actually do.

    After reading over many of these posts, I suspect that Miguel got much of his science education from Star Trek (and similar venues). As a science fiction fan and someone who strives to align his picture of the world with reality as much as possible, I can attest that Star Trek's entertainment value often comes at the expense of scientific accuracy.

    Perhaps the biggest issue with technology in the context of this blog is that as new technologies develop, we'll be expected to spend money on them. More things working against those of us who want to simplify and gain greater independence from money.

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  163. Of course if everyone had a universal assembler that they could program, it might be a big step toward a moneyless economy. (Why go to Wal-Mart when you can have your universal assembler make junk for you right at home?)

    Naturally, the energy and materials for it would cost something though. You'd probably have to pay licensing fees for the templates for the things that it creates. On the other hand such things could follow the example of the open source software movement...

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  164. "After reading over many of these posts, I suspect that Miguel got much of his science education from Star Trek (and similar venues)."

    I rather have my science education from Star Trek than from an uninformed idiot who only thinks "That's impossible". It is not surprising to understand why the father of nanotechnology, Dr. Eric Drexler, was considered a crackpot by many high profile experts.

    Right now, that nanotech is a billion dollar industry, skeptics are not so outspoken. As advanced nanotechnolgy is getting closer, now these proud men say there is a lot of hype. Nonsense, I say, they will be proben wrong, AGAIN.

    And by the way, I got my nanotech education from Dr. Eric Drexler's book, "Engines of Creation: The Coming Era of Nanotechnology" and his other more technical work, "Nanosystems: Molecular Machinery, Manufacturing, and Computation". Where did you get your nanotech education?.

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  165. Not to mention the incredible energy that a universal assembler would require to work. As I see it, this kind of machine would be able to take a lump of coal and change it into a strawberry. You'd literally have to break subatomic bonds. It would take the energy of several nuclear power plants to make your lunch. A nice fantasy, but very efficient.

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  166. Joseph, you should study "Nanosystems: Molecular Machinery, Manufacturing, and Computation". If the universal assembler required incredible energy, Dr. Eric Drexler would not promote it's construction.

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  167. I meant "not" very efficent!

    Really, getting back to Suelo, I have now read a lot more of his writings and have a great respect for the guy. I believe he is a decent, sincere person. However -- and I don't think this is just an assumption -- it is doubtful that his living alone out in the wilderness, with occasional forays into town to type on the computer and house sit, contribute much to elevating the lot of the poor or the oppressed in our society.

    I understand that Suelo once worked for the Peace Corps -- again, a very admirable episode in his life, but as someone once said, "What have you done for us lately?"

    I'm not trying to lay a guilt trip on Suelo, but the upshot of living without money in the context of the world that exists (not the world man of dream of) also means one is impotent to create positive change for other humans -- because the way society is presently structured, that unfortunately costs money.

    I believe that even Mother Teresa's facility in India, where she fed and ministered to "the poorest of the poor" required money to operate, and would have had to close the next day if money ceased coming in.

    That is just the unfortunate reality of the world.

    So although Suelo is a decent man with benign intentions, and probably very spiritual and close to the divine force, I would have to say that charitable work, voluntary work as Ana calls it, and living a life like Mother Teresa is in fact objectively contributing more to the commonweal than what Suelo is doing.

    Still, I wish him the best in his "experiment", and I think if for no other reason than a PR exercise in escaping the evils of our mercantile society, he is having some net positive impact.

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  168. OK, Miguel - I will find that writing by Drexler.

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  169. Joseph: You are a better psychologist than nanotech expert.

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  170. Miguel,
    If you consider copying some big words out of a book written by another person an"education" as you stated earlier, than you are truly need some professional help; perhaps your friend Joseph the "better psychologist" could take on the job!! leave the science fiction stuff for your night time comic book forays, not here!!

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  171. Cajun Joe says,

    A certain top talker/poster here has too much PRIDE!

    The postings stick out like a sore thumb, completely off topic, immature, and antagonistic.

    Shall we do a little Bible study on pride? Pride appears 64 times and proud 47
    times in Bible verses.

    Lets take a look at a few verses for adventure:

    Lev 26:18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

    Lev 26:19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:

    sa 10:2 The wicked in his pride doth persecute the poor: let them be taken in the devices that they have imagined.

    Psa 10:4 The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts.

    Psa 59:12 For the sin of their mouth and the words of their lips let them even be taken in their pride: and for cursing and lying which they speak.

    Pro 29:23 A man's pride shall bring him low: but honour shall uphold the humble in spirit.

    Job 40:11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

    Job 40:12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

    Psa 12:3 The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things:

    That’s 9 out of 111 verses……Get the idea?

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  172. I'll admit that I'm not a nanotech expert, but I have delved into the subject deeply enough to know that the possibilities presented in science fiction are far from the actual state of the art in nanotech. Moreover, I know that popular books of the type writing by Drexler may be informative, but if you really want to be informed about a subject you need to read the journals outlining the research. Popular non-fiction needs to be taken with a grain of salt because it's often biased by the politics and the personal beliefs of the author.

    While I agree that nanotech might have the potential to give us more effective solar cells and innovative medical interventions, I'm highly skeptical that it will give us immortality or salvation.

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  173. I'm guessing Nanotechnology will cost a lot of money, so what place does it have in a 'Moneyless World'? Which I will remind you is the title of this blog.

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  174. I am betting that Nanotech is going to be incredibly cheap. As technology has always followed an exponential trend of cheaper and better. Look at today's computers, they are thousands of times faster than yesterday's and millions of times cheaper.

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  175. And I forgot to mention one thing, today's computers can fit in your pocket. Do you guess what the next step is?. Yes, they will be inside our bodies, the size of a red blood cell. They are called nanobots in nanotech lingo. And if that were not enough, they will be thousands of times faster than today's computers.

    So to draw a probable prediction, I would say that 99% of humans will be cyborgs in a couple of decades. And we will be billions of times smarter than legacy humans. So the line that separates AIs and us will become diffuse.

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  176. Cajun Joe: I know you are talking about me. So let me tell you something: If I were proud I would not be visiting this site, much less commenting on it.

    It requieres a lot of humility and courage to enter a blog that doesn't share my point of view and be able to speak my mind and defend my thoughts.

    Try if a proud man can do that. I doubt it.

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  177. "Moreover, I know that popular books of the type writing by Drexler may be informative, but if you really want to be informed about a subject you need to read the journals outlining the research."

    If you think that nanotech's father, Dr. Eric Drexler, is only a popular author and writes science fiction, I understand that. It makes me think of you as an ignorant, disrespectful and ultimately naive person about the possibilities of nanotechnology.

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  178. And if you want a moneyless society, I have not seen a better vision than the Venus Project:

    http://www.thevenusproject.com/index.php


    Jacque Fresco envisions a resource based economy instead of a money based economy.

    http://www.thevenusproject.com/a-new-social-design/resource-based-economy

    Quoting:
    "A Resource-Based Economy is a system in which all goods and services are available without the use of money, credits, barter or any other system of debt or servitude. All resources become the common heritage of all of the inhabitants, not just a select few. The premise upon which this system is based is that the Earth is abundant with plentiful resource; our practice of rationing resources through monetary methods is irrelevant and counter productive to our survival."

    Now, that is something concrete and practical, as Suelo's vision of a moneyless world is not very articulated.

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  179. I never said Drexler is only a popular author and I did not call his work science fiction. Pay attention!

    As for naivety, believing that technology has become inherently better with the passage of time and that it will solve all of our problems seems the pinnacle of naivety. Peter Senge said that yesterday's solutions have become today's problems. It's much more practical to pick and choose from existing technologies, rejecting complex technologies where simpler ones are more practical and developing new technologies to solve specific problems, than it is to blindly assume that advanced technology will solve all of our problems.

    Often simpler technology is cheaper and more practical than more "advanced" technology. For example, a compost toilet is cheaper and easier to implement and much more reliable than plumbing and a septic system. Plus, you don't have to pay someone to pump out a tank and haul away the refuse.

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  180. There is nothing more cheaper, simpler and practical than nanotechnology. And there is nothing more powerful or with more future possibilities.

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  181. "As for naivety, believing that technology has become inherently better with the passage of time and that it will solve all of our problems seems the pinnacle of naivety."

    It has actually become thousands of times better, not in some abstract moral sense, but in actual computing capacity per dollar.

    It is naive to think technology will stagnate or continue to improve at the same rate it is now. It will continue with an exponential growth.

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  182. Sorry, it is not thousands, it is billions of times of better in computing capacity per dollar.

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  183. Also I mentioned a technical book by Drexler about nanotech: "Nanosystems: Molecular Machinery, Manufacturing, and Computation". I recommend you read it first, before talking like an expert.

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  184. Everyone is missing the point here..It doesn't matter what technology can do for this world, it still boils down to how people USE it: create a new anything, and without self-control people will use it, and abuse it until the next new "better thing" comes along...science isn't going to save the world, self-control will; without moderation, nothing will last, and technology will never be able to keep up, even Miguel's beloved "nanotechnology"! and I'll say it again...reading a book on any given subject does not make you an "expert"...sorry to burst your bubble Miguel!!

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  185. Yes! Lonewolf! That's the point I was trying to make!

    I'm sorry to everyone that I got drawn into this debate with Miguel. I was weak!

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  186. Anonymous(1:47PM),
    There is no need to apologize!I am sure everyone here feels the same as you about the situation with Miguel...it is why he does it, he NEEDS the feedback,it's what he thrives on, it is so obvious that he is a sick man! and it's human nature to want to speak out against the people and things in life that are unpleasent and annoying!! besides, how else can you respond to someone who thinks "99% of human will be cyborgs in a couple of decades"!

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  187. "and it's human nature to want to speak out against the people and things in life that are unpleasent and annoying!!"

    Wrong, it is human nature to avoid confrontation.

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  188. "I'm sorry to everyone that I got drawn into this debate with Miguel. I was weak!"

    Yes, you are weak, proud and ultimately stupid.

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  189. "It is one of the most remarkable things that in all of the biological sciences there is no clue as to the necessity of death. If you say we want to make perpetual motion, we have discovered enough laws as we studied physics to see that it is either absolutely impossible or else that the laws are wrong. But there is nothing in biology yet found that indicates the inevitability of death. This suggest to me that it is not at all inevitable and that it is only a matter of time before the biologists discover what it is that is causing us the trouble and that this terrible universal disease or temporariness of the human’s body will be cured."

    Richard P. Feynman | Physicist

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  190. "reading a book on any given subject does not make you an "expert"...sorry to burst your bubble Miguel!!"

    Right, but not reading an essential book is the best guarantee of ignorance of a subject.

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  191. "wrong,it is human nature to avoid confrontation"...yeah, that sure explains war,and the multitude of other violent acts mankind does to each other! Your ignorance is showing again Miguel! what is it like to be that simple?? reading back through these posts, it is easy to believe that you and "Dirk Diggler" are one and the same! the people here have got your number. it is obvious that you are not even smart enough to know when you are not wanted, and despised!!

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  192. Group activity works a little different. For example in my situation, I am being pressed to adopt the values of the group. I resist the pressure and I get attacked. See?.

    Now individual humans are very timid and are afraid to say what they believe, specially when they have to confront a group with different views than him. I am a clear exception to that rule.

    Now, who is the ignorant?.

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  193. No one cares if someone gets occassionally off topic.
    Miguel, however, you do it on regular basis. It's called trolling, Miguel. You do this 5-10 times every day.
    Maybe it's time to say 'Enough is enough'. If I was Suelo, I would start deleting the off topic posts. This blog is becomming pretty senseless with the frequent off topic posts.

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  194. Cajun Joe has a question for Miguel:

    Miguel,

    >>>>> Try if a proud man can do that.
    I doubt it.

    Right on target with your modus operandi.
    A smug, pompous, smarty pants wise guy attitude. You need an attitude adjustment.

    Are you the web master, blog owner, or moderator of this website?

    Yes or No will suffice.

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  195. Are you the web master, blog owner, or moderator of this website?

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  196. If the answer is no, then you have "A smug, pompous, smarty pants wise guy attitude." And "You need an attitude adjustment."

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  197. These posts are getting really off topic, but...

    Miguel may know about Technocracy, a philosophical movement and proposed form of government. They envision a moneyless world, with unlimited resources and abundance created by technology.

    Under Technocracy, there would be no food shortages or housing shortages, because everything would be planned by a government made up of scientists and technological experts who would allocate all resources based on need. Labor and consumption would be based not on a so-called "free market" as under capitalism, but scientific planning.

    Maybe this is what Miguel is talking about when he proposes a moneyless world based on advanced technology to free us of human need...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy_movement

    A lot of this is really fantasy with little practical basis in reality, and that is one reason the Technocracy movement never took off as an alternative, although it was founded in 1918.

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