Saturday, September 11, 2010

Endless Possibilities

Inspiration to blog doesn't seem to happen but about once a month.

Funny Farm

Drama has been happening at the farm, with our stupid mistakes and human silliness.  Several times it has seemed our sense of community was falling apart.  Maybe the farm itself is falling apart - who knows.  But the sense of community behind it?  I figure if our sense of community falls apart, it was never authentic in the first place, and should fall apart!  Then something happens and Love triumphs through our nonsense, we talk it over, forgive through hugs and tears.  Life is absolutely splendid if we stick with it, don't give up.

Penniless On His Own

Roy hitch-hiked back to Moab from L.A. with his little sister, Sylvia.  This was her first time out of Los Angeles, and what a way to do it!  I found Sylvia totally delightful.  She has a don't-give-up sense of adventure just like her brother, and I felt a connection with her.

It turns out that Roy's and Sylvia's mother, meanwhile, took a trip to New Mexico, so Roy and Sylvia decided to hitch-hike there to meet her.  She then took them back to L.A. 

Meanwhile, I was thinking and meditating on my relationship with Roy, feeling like our goals weren't the same.  He can't let grass grow under his feet and I often feel like I'm holding him back.  I was thinking of ways of discussing this with him before he came back to Moab, when he sent me an email saying he had other plans.  He wants bigger challenges and has decided to hitch-hike out of the country with no money, to head south through Mexico, eventually to South America.  His family, apparently, is helping him get a passport.  I feel proud of him.  He changed the name of his blog, which also makes me feel better.  I really don't feel comfortable with any kind of -ism, much less "sueloism". 


I take a deep breath before publishing this, bracing myself for the ire of commentators.

I last blogged at the start of Ramadan, and Ramadan is over.  Carolyn had the idea to celebrate Ramadan from new moon to new moon and asked me to join her, in solidarity with authentic Muslims, people of Peace (Islam, after all, means "peace", derived from the same semitic root as the Hebrew shalom).  What's great is that Carolyn is dating a totally cute dude named David, of Yiddish background, who happens to be a bomber cook.  David likes to cook elaborate Shabat (Sabbath) meals at sundown on Friday.  That makes for a perfect dance between Islam and Judaism for Carolyn and me, because on Ramadan you aren't supposed to eat all month until after sundown! 

Muslims celebrate Ramadan as the month that Muhammad received his Quranic revelations in his cave in the Arabian desert. I thought it a splendid idea, in perfect timing, not only as a declaration of solidarity with Muslims--because of the recent bigotry of people not allowing freedom of religion for Muslims wanting to establish mosques here (it's anti-American and anti-Christian to deny freedom of religion for others)--but also because I've been studying the Quran, with new brainstorms waiting to burst out of my head and heart.  It blows me away the epiphanies crystallizing in me this month: a strangely eerie harmony between the Bible and Quran has become crystal clear. 

I can see why people might reject the Quran for what it says, in the same way people reject the Bible for what it says.  If you take both books literally, the Quran's Jihad is almost as violent as the Torah's Jihad.  But whether or not the Quran is violent is a moot point for most self-proclaimed Christians and Jews: they reject the Quran not because of anything it says or doesn't say, but because of religious ego. It was already decided to be evil before they even looked at it (the simple fact they reject the Buddhist sutras or the Tao Te Ching, which couldn't be more loving and non-violent, proves my case).  In the same way, most self-proclaimed Muslims reject the Bible not because of anything it says or doesn't say, but because of religious ego, despite the Quran itself saying over and over that it was given to confirm the Jewish and Christian scriptures already existing as they are, not replace them.  I keep looking at the apparent contradictions and finding they are actually intriguing clues to get you notice something infinitely deep.  I hope to write down these mysteries to share, Insha'Allah.  No, I can't deny there are things in the Quran, like in the Bible, that I find way bothersome.  But the gold nuggets in the ore are too splendid to throw out with the ore. 

Religion, A-Religion, & Science

Besides, history shows us religion is not going to go away any more than the human heart will go away.  Whatever doesn't go away, we must find a way to embrace it, transform it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I keep feeling religion will go obsolete by embracing it, not fighting it.  Billions of people hold some form of religion in their deepest heart, and you can never truly understand any people or culture if you don't understand their religion.

The a-religious are also not going away, will always be with us, and must be embraced.  It usually seems the a-religious make less of a mess of the world than the religious.  But then there are huge exceptions, like the old Soviet Union and today's "People's Republic" of China.  It could be argued that the these two countries never eliminated religion (dogma) but simply replaced one form of worship (deity) with another fanaticism (state).

And Christianity?  The paradox of Christianity is that it cannot be Christian if it doesn't practice the Golden Rule.  You must examine other religions with your full, respectful, non-judgmental heart in the same way you want them to examine yours, otherwise your religion is not Christianity!  The Golden Rule is Christianity! 

And you cannot be a complete scientist, a complete anthropologist, sociologist, or psychologist if you ignore religion. Religion is part of human biology, part of evolution.  Looking at the horrors religion has caused in the world (especially our own Big Book religions), and after reading past comments in this blog, I often get discouraged and wonder why I bother.  I lose site of the gold in the ore.  The ore can't be changed, just burned away by life's trial.  Just when I'm about to give up, throw down my pick-axe, and leave the dirty mine, I see the gold sparkle: passion is passion, and I can't repress this passion in me.  Funny, me, Mr Zerocurrency, using gold as analogy.

What Next?

Roy and I had plans to travel together this Fall, but since he's meandered off a different path, I'm not sure what will happen now.  With all this inner stuff I want to write down, I feel more inclined to stay put, because time is short and I don't want to waste it.  I just don't want to leave this life without sharing with everybody the absolute splendor I see.


  1. i love the thought that "exactly who you are is the answer." roy has gone his way to find out exactly who he is. if we'd all find a way to accept that in each other peace would reign.

    this blog is not just moneyless, it's also priceless. i'm sticking with you through it all.

    much love to you.

  2. I find the Quran's 9:1 thru 9:11 (Surat At-Tawbah) disturbing, not because of what is written so much, as how people misinterpret it in the name of Allah AND Christianity.
    Some folks on here completely miss Daniel's message no matter how PLAINLY he makes it.
    People hear what they want to hear.

  3. Suelo,

    It's good that you and Roy are still great friends. I'm sure the two of you will get another chance to do some traveling together. Your paths might be exact but there's still more similarities than dissimilarities.

    Glad to hear you enjoyed your Ramadan with your fellow comrades at the farming community. I've always wanted to work a season or so at one of those places. Maybe one day I will.

  4. This comment has been removed by the author.

  5. i made a typo - i meant to say "not be exact" as opposed to "be exact".

  6. It's cool you're studying the Quran. I've always been interested in Islam but I've always had a hard time reading the Quran. I'm honestly not much of a reader, so I'm happy for you to do the footwork and find all the good verses and point them out! =)

    I hope your time reflecting goes well. I believe there's a growing movement of people who are waking up from the illusion of money and that you've had a big role in helping people wake up from that, including people like Roy. We're not together physically, but someday maybe we can meet again.

  7. Beware ! Satin is trying to trick you ! Jesus Is the way !

  8. Just a quick question for Anonymous out of my own curiousity. Have you read or tried to read the Quran?


  9. Seriously Dude, SATIN is trying to trick us!
    I think you meant SATAN. I don't know, maybe satin is the agent of the devil, LOL

  10. I think Anonymous is somehow worried that Suelo will be brainwashed by reading the Quran and then suddenly turn caveman/jihadist. Don't worry Any, Suelo's got a good head on his shoulders, I think the Holy Spirit will guide him into all truth. (II Timothy 1:7) Thanks for your concern, though.

  11. I just wanted to say one more thing. Religious people often times get bent out of shape when you quote or read something from another religion. However, I feel that if you truly believe what you say you believe, then you should be able to hear and honestly consider any point of view. If people do that, then maybe they'd become more clear in what it is they really believe. Being scared of losing your faith, to me, doesn't really sound like faith at all.

    I like to check out all kinds of beliefs and even though I believe in Jesus I'll read Marx, the Watchtower or whatever. Truth is truth no matter who says it. I don't get bent out of shape over who the messenger is. Sometimes I even read business textbooks just to see what philosophy they're espousing. Information holds no magical powers on it's own, it's all about how we apply that information.

  12. Love you, Daniel! Thank you for being nonjudgmental, loving, and supportive... especially appreciated this past week!

  13. Daniel always quotes "by their fruit you shall know them " I now see him and his friends for what they are . New age . that is right, By their fruit we will know them .

    Im not trying to put anyone down . I used to believe the same way . I was new age for 7 years

    I have chosen to believe the way I believe because of some "experiences" I had . I know that those expeiriences were of the darkness .

    If any of you ever come to the realization of where you are Always remember that you can always call on the name of JESUS to save you !

    I read a story a long time ago about a man who died and the demons where wisking him off to hell and he cried out to JESUS and all the demons fled and he was instantly with JESUS in the light .

    Here is a very interesting quote from the bible .

    Luke 23:39-43

    [39] One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

    [40] But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? [41] We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

    [42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

    [43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."


  14. Daniel ,
    You don't have to take a deep breath . I Know that in the past I have been harsh with my comments and I would like to tell you that I am very sorry for acting that way towards you. Please forgive me I got caught up in the heat of debate and forgot the golden rule .

  15. Any #2, I can't speak for Suelo, but I was touched by what you said. It'd be nice to see real reconciliation here.

    Any#1, I often times worry that people will think I'm some meanie because I often respond to you, but I do feel some responsibility to address what you say and I can't worry what people think of me. First of all you say Suelo (and presumably me?) base our beliefs on "experiences" but then you go right on to talk about an experience from someone you know which confirms your beliefs. So it's okay for you to talk about experiences reflecting your beliefs but the same standards don't apply to Suelo?

    You can call people here "New Age" if that makes you feel any better, but I think most people don't really care about titles like that. I know Jesus didn't, he hardly ever called himself anything but the Son of Man, which anybody can be. I think your own illustration about the thief on the cross brings home the point that Suelo has been making about accepting people of other religious beliefs. He was sincere, he was genuine and that's all that Jesus cared about.

    Romans 2:14-15
    14 Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.

    Till next time, as-salaam Alaikum.

  16. Oh yeah, sorry I just read Any#1's post again, it seems he wasn't saying that Suelo can't talk about experiences, just that the bad ones they had turned him away from New Age beliefs. Well Any, I'm happy you've found you believe more than what you previously believed. Sorry for misunderstanding you.

  17. Suelo,

    I get a tremendous kick of enjoyment reading your blog. Your lack of being judgmental and condemnation is inspirational. As I see it, the world is much too quick to judge a book by it’s cover and I think that is what you are trying to demonstrate. Myself, I’m not religious but I am quite spiritual. In seeking my own identity, I have dabbled in many religions. What I have come up with is that religions believe in a power greater than I. I believe this to be true but not from a religious stand point. From a spiritual stand point we all know what is right from wrong.

    Through my exploration and experience, we have three components to life.


  18. Any # 2, thanks. I feel touched, too.

    Any # 1, "A rose called by any other name is still a rose". And an apple is an apple whether you call it a pomme, a manzana or Jack or Christian" or New Age or Krishna or Jesus. You can argue with labels, but not with apples, as much as you try, my friend.

    I'm pleased, in a way, about all the past comments. I challenge you to look through them and see who is, without fail, constantly diverting attention away from the basic teachings of the Jesus they claim to believe and who is drawing attention toward them.

  19. They sure make it hard to embrace those BIG BOOK religions when they're always thumping you on head with their exclusive 'truth'.

    But its clear that embracing *all* with an open heart and mind is the only way to live a positive and hopeful life - otherwise we're just an ignorant species that will eventually kill itself off....

    thanks Suelo for writing this post, and for taking the time to share some new perspectives...

  20. I think I realize why the Anons evangelize so much here. It's the cheapest of all possible Christian activities. It's nothing out of their pocket to yammer on and on about Jesus. Of course it's quite a lot of damage to their wallet to actually live like Jesus.

  21. Here's a new music video with Suelo and Mark Boyle!

    Check it out.

  22. Jesse,
    WOW, I loved that video and the music.

    Thanks for sharing it!

  23. Jesse, I'm still waiting for access to headphones so I can hear that video!

    Just now I realized I wrote this post on 9-11. Totally unintentional!

  24. Hey Suelo, the video I just posted is actually a music video, the other video is a documentary. Jim, I'm not sure if you were asking me about ALYnApache but I believe they are unrelated to the music video I posted. I don't know much about them. If you click on the youtube channel, you'll see a bunch more videos by the same people, including several music videos.

  25. I watched the videos . I thought it was interesting that all the people in the videos are so worried about "the mark of the beast." Believers in jesus need not worry about that as we will be raptured . Remember that god took away the sins of the WHOLE world ! And that jesus came to give us life ! We need to ask him to be our savior to recieve that life .

    Jesus taught under the law in mat mark luke john To show us that we cannot live up to the demands of the law and that we need him to live his life thru us . After jesus died a "new covenant " came into affect . Under the new covenant we are 100 % forgiven for all of our sin past pres and fut ,but we need to come to him for life . we need not worry about our behavior he will change it . Its all him and none of us we are not in the equasion

  26. Its all about JESUS CHRIST ! He is god ! not buddah ,Dolly lama ,alah,wicca,suelo or anybody else . JESUS CHRIST IS THE MAN TO GO SEE If you want to go to heaven (LIFE) .

    Beware of the the occultic views of suelo and others . They are not true . JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY TO LIFE !

  27. Hey Suelo, funny you wrote the post on 9/11. Maybe it was divine providence. If humans were to genuinely try to understand each others' beliefs, we wouldn't have situations like 9/11. It's part of the solution to learn to work with each other, and overcome our prejudices. It doesn't mean we can't disagree, or have different ideas, but honest rational discussion without prejudice would probably go a long way towards minimizing violence and hate.

  28. Jesse,
    I'm referring to the fellow in the video singing "This is Freedom." I'd love to hear more of his stuff.

  29. To Religious Any, I posted a music video, you are referring to a documentary about the mark of the beast. The relevant thing that documentary said to this blog is about how prophecy is very clear in it's stance against money. Most church going people miss that and prefer to opt for the line of "well, it's never gonna affect me, why think about it?" It's similar to what a lot of the religious people on this blog have done with Jesus' words. Hope I'm not being too harsh here, but I'm deeply disturbed by what you're saying. Are you saying that nothing Jesus taught matters except for making us aware of how unworthy we are? Wow.

  30. One more thing. How can you come to Jesus if you reject everything he said?

    Jim, there's no CD for that music, but it's available for free download to put on your ipod or whatever. Here's a link to the download page:

    "The Law of Love" and "When Love Becomes our Philosophy" are good songs. I think "This is Freedom" still hasn't been uploaded, but will be in a short while. If you want more specific info please contact me at as this is Suelo's blog and I don't want to distract away from the topics he brings up. Enjoy! =)

  31. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world his burial is proof and he rose to give us LIFE . That is what is all about jesse .It's all what he did and none of what we do . religious achievements don't impress God .

  32. Again, pop "christian" doctrine is designed to render useless everything its own Jesus taught by mouthing its magic mantra "Grace" ("Corban" or "Gift of God").

    It's astonishing how in the "evangelical" maze, if you follow your own ego works, chasing money and stuff, striving for future security, supporting meaningless wars for profit in the name of "god and country," shitting on the Golden Rule, poisoning the earth we're all dependent upon in the name of Profit, supporting the Beast of Babylon with all your heart, you are 100% forgiven, just as long as you mouth "Jesus died & rose for your sins." But if you even suggest True Grace (Gratis), living simply as Jesus taught, meaning living by faith, not own ego works, meaning relaxing in Grace, giving up possessions & striving, meaning taking up that Cross daily you claim to believe in, as you KNOW Jesus teaches, then all the sudden you're no longer forgiven and a tool of the Devil! Maybe it's because those basic teachings of Jesus are identical to those of Buddha. Ah, then, Give me hell! I'll gladly be there with Gandhi and Peace Pilgrim and Buddha, all who kept Jesus' teachings, rather than in heaven with fruitless hypocrisy.

  33. Religious achievements don't impress God . Its all what JESUS did and NOTHING we do .

    Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he as raised on the third day according to the Scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4).

    There is no other way to heaven (life) than thru JESUS CHRIST .

  34. Tell a self-righteous person that his religious achievements don't impress God and you're setting yourself up for a fight.

    God is not relating to us on the basis of law; the cross dealt with that. Christ nailed the law, with all its ordinances and requirements against us, to the cross (Col. 2:14). He fulfilled the law for us. He took it out of the way, and the law is now obsolete. He is the end of the law for righteousness for all who believe (Rom 10:5). We died to the law by the cross and were married to Christ (Rom. 7:4).

    God makes no demands on us. We have no requirements or obligations before God. God doesn't "should" on us. We have no Christian duties or obligations. We are free from the law! We are not under the law but under grace. We don't think about good and evil, right and wrong, do's and don'ts; we think about Life! We now have Christ in us, with His righteous nature and desires inside. Christ is our life, and He will live through us and keep us. We are truly free from worrying about what we should or shouldn't do, free to enjoy our relationship with Christ!

    We never need to do something to get God's favor, for we already have it as a gift by Jesus' work, not our own! And we never need to do something to "regain" the favor we feel we've lost by sinning. The fact is, we don't lose His favor when we sin. (Since His favor is based on Christ's perfect work, the only way we could lose that favor would be if Christ were to sin! Not gonna happen!) We are truly free from trying to get God's acceptance and a perfect relationship with Him, free to enjoy the acceptance and perfect relationship we ALREADY have with Him as a gift through Jesus!

    The Christian life isn't about what we must do for God; it is about what Jesus already did for us. It's not all up to us, but all up to Christ, and Christ's work is finished!

  35. Suelo alway quotes "by their fruit you shall know them ."

    I can see suelo's fruit . Suelo is into the occult . Suelo is anti christ . Suelo accuses us who believe in JESUS of being on "ego" trips and "chasing" money . How does he know ? (that may be true for some ) He attacks us when we try to tell the truth that its all what JESUS did and none of what we do ,and that Religious achievements don't impress God. Whos on an ego trip?We never said that living by the teaching of JESUS was wrong their is nothing wrong with that ! Its just that god is not impressed . JESUS already did the work and there is nothing we can do to be accepted by god more than we already are .

    Just because I live in a appartment ,drive a car and buy food from a grocery store does not meen that I am greedy and chase after money .That is not in my heart . Most of the time im struggling just to make ends meet . I am far from greedy my friend .

    At any rate . I don't care how close the teachings of buddah or who ever else . there is only one holy bible and it was writen by GOD and it is the authority . There is only one way to GOD and that is thru JESUS CHRIST .

  36. And another thing . The truth that I post here is all biblical ! Go read it for yourself ! It is not "POP" christin junk as suelo accused . I Am a truth seeker and I would not tell anyone lies . Remember that there is only one way to heaven and that is thru JESUS CHRIST .

  37. If jesus is the "only" way and Buddha,Gandhi,and Peace Pilgrim are burning in Hell then why would any sane and loving person wanna be in Heaven with such an evil god? No wonder the devil and a third of the angels rebelled against such a tyrant. This is horrible!

  38. Yeah, we get it bro, John 14:6! We can read the Bible too! When you say you don't care about the teachings of "Buddha or who ever else" clearly illustrates your narrow mindedness. A real "truth seeker" looks for the truth no matter where it comes from. The fact that you drive a car, live in an appartment etc. does not indicate that you are greedy, just that your a wage slave.
    Just another brainwashed lemming.

  39. This has turned into useless argument, and I myself am also guilty of feeding into it. I keep remembering why I don't talk about religion much in person-to-person life, in real life, and why most the people I hang out with are non-religious.

  40. Suelo,
    I know that you have Zeitgeist veiws .Hey, I have to admit it is very interesting . I never even knew about it until I watched some videos about it last night .I plan on learning more about it However ,So far , It did not change my views that JESUS is the only way to "life" .

    How is that for an open mind UC ?

    UC , I can tell that you are a real loving kind of guy .

  41. Ha, yesterday I made a long reply to the religious stuff and it didn't post. I was a little disappointed cause I put some thought into it and then I had the same thought as Suelo, why am I feeding the flames? Maybe now I'm thinking it was a little divine intervention. Anyway, hope things are good there in Moab. I'm interested to see what gems you find in the Quran.

  42. All I am saying, over and over, is that anybody who rejects Jesus' teachings rejects Jesus, as your New Testament clearly says, and saying Jesus is "the only way" becomes total nonsense. Jesus is his teachings. If you don't believe me & think I'm Antichrist, then forget about me and other religions for now and just start with simply DESIRING to practice what you know Jesus teaches in your own Gospels, and then see whether or not what I am saying is true. If you do, I dare say the power to keep Jesus' teachings will come by Grace, not your own efforts. The branch abiding in the Vine will produce fruit. And i dare say that you'll realize that "Christ is all and in all," not some petty tribal god limited to "Christianity". Go ahead, prove it, practice it.

  43. I am a real loving guy, I just have a really low tolerance for dogma.

  44. UC,
    What your saying is that you have a low tolerance for people who don't hold the same beliefs as you .

  45. I found a great film concerning Zeitgeist. I tend to agree with this person . You have to watch ALL of both parts to get that whole thing.



    Daniel , I don't reject JESUS teachings . His teaching was to show us that we cannot live our lifes without him .No one can live under the demands of the law (perfection) Only JESUS was perfect. We have to let him live his life through us . I also never said that the law was bad . I said that under the new covenant we are no longer under that law . The law is obsolete .

    JESUS offered us life . He is the only way to life .

  46. Why worship anyone's ego? Be it Jebuz,Mithra,Krishna,Superman,Batman,or Robin. Let it go. Just be. Life's way too short for all this. None of it can be proven either way. Just living by the example that the Christ character taught (whether he was real or not) and you'll see that this money based system is wicked and slavery. It's all based on a collective that we've all been conditioned to accept as the way life is supposed to be.

  47. No anonymous, I think that is exclusively YOUR domain!

  48. Zeitgeist refers to a nation or group living in the present, not an individual. Look it up.

  49. UC,
    Ok , You can't handle someone with a strong position ? Why does that bother you so much ? Why do you even care ? What buttons am I pushing causing you to lash out at me ? You don't like people with stong positions on the death,burial and reserection of JESUS? Why? Why are you so threatened? Just asking .

    To all ,

    JESUS offered us life . He is the only way to life .

  50. I think you need to find a mirror!

  51. Suelo, if it weren't for your own comments, I would suggest you simply turn the comments off on this blog.

    I am not a religious person, but I think about some of the things you have written often. I'm convinced that the love of money is what is wrong with our destructive culture. We're not even happy while we destroy the planet and hoard our money.

    I do not live like you. I live rather ordinarily. But I may choose a Peace Pilgrim lifestyle in the future.

  52. Religious exclusivity is what divides people. There's nothing harmonious or unifying about it. It's the opposite of true spirituality. Evangelical Christianity and mainline Islam tend to be the worst about this sort of thing but it's certainly not limited to these groups. Live and let live. This talk about Jebuz being the "only" way is YOUR opinion and not necessarily the opinion of everyone else. Mr. Suelo never claimed to be of any particular theology BUT at least he follows the true tenants of Christianity.

  53. Suelo , Jesse ,ben ,piper,UC,

    I feel like it's 5 against 1 here . I was only trying to share the good news of gods love . I can tell that Im not welcome here . I will be on my way ,but always remember that god forgave you all your sin past pres and future . and he came to give you LIFE . there is not one thing you can do to make yourself any more forgiven than you already are . to accept his "life" just believe in him . and you will be saved .

  54. If you have a wife and a 2 year-old son, can you live without money? I'm a Moslem myself, and I don't recall ever read Rasulullah said to abandon your family. Your wife, you could probably talk her to live by your lifestyle, but for your son--Masya Allah! You want the best for your son! From the cloth he wears to the school he attends to. At least until he could choose for himself if he wants to live the life his parents choose. It's not fair for the son to be forced to live poor while his parents are actually able to do more. Unless if there is no choice in the first place. Am I wrong?

  55. Hi there, I just wanted to put in a plug to keep the comments open. Often times the discussion seems like it can be a little 'negative' but I think it's through some of these types of clashes that we can find out what it is we really believe. Sometimes, clashing can be a big part of coming to accept each others' beliefs. It certainly happens in marriage, the movies make it look like peaches and roses, but anyone that has had a partner for several years know it ain't really like that. I love open discussion, even when people disagree (sometimes especially when people disagree) but it does get a little annoying when some people can't listen to each other. The difference between a discussion and an argument is that in an argument, no one is listening.

    Rational discussion is really the way forward. Just my vote, however.

  56. Hey blubeetle -
    I hear you, but it was possible to live with a family before money was invented; why not now? Anything is possible if our minds are open to it (ie, we have faith), if we work together. Envision community, sharing everything, including child care. Community provides cradle-to-grave insurance for physical, mental & spiritual needs. The Quran & Hadith continuously encourage simple living, sharing wealth, but they discourage hiding solitary in monasteries. That means community. I still have long to go, but first steps are first steps.

    About comments: I like keeping speech as free as possible, and welcome differing opinions, but often think about returning to having folks identify themselves in the light. Stepping into the light, out of hiding in dark, does wonders.

    People who come here usually believe in living simply and we feel we're a minority with few safe places to go away from Big Babylon & its supporting powers: Mega-Corporations & Big Religion. When somebody comes here dominating the comments with non-religious-Big-Babylon-attack-mentality (as in droves of past comments) or Big-Religion-attack-mentality (more recent comments), showing little ability to listen, distracting from any kind of rational discussion, of course the tables turn and they might feel like a persecuted minority here. What else can you expect?

  57. "Suelo , Jesse ,ben ,piper,UC,

    I feel like it's 5 against 1 here . I was only trying to share the good news of gods love . I can tell that Im not welcome here . I will be on my way ,but always remember that god forgave you all your sin past pres and future . and he came to give you LIFE . there is not one thing you can do to make yourself any more forgiven than you already are . to accept his "life" just believe in him . and you will be saved ." - Anonymous

    You act as if none of us have ever heard of your dribble. What you're saying is both old hat and a form of hate speech against those of other faiths. I currently live in the Bible Belt and because I'm not a Baptist or some pentecostal I'm the outcast. The only difference between us is that I'm not trying to push my views (or lack -there-of) on others nor do I promote the worship of a god that burns people for not adhering to the exclusive doctrines of Christianity.

    I've lived in the Pacific north-west where most Christians were mainline and there were lots of other types that adhered to Buddhism,Hinduism,and the indigenous Native American religions. They never once tried to push their dogmas on others. That's the difference between Christianity and the more enlightened religions of the east.

    Respect goes both ways. That's something that Christian evangelicals and most (but not all) Muslims fail to understand.

  58. Daniel ,
    Just to clear up a few things . I live about as simple as one can live in this "system ."I grow and preserve alot of my own food .I don't have many posessions .I refuse to work for large corporations .I believe (have a Strong position)live by and tell others about the pure grace of god . That is hardly "big religion.""big religion" and even most small town churches reject my message (They know its true but still reject it ).They are more interested in keeping people under the law so they can control them . or putting people under guilt trips so that they will give more money .

    The pure grace of god is The "true message" of the new testament . The message is that JESUS died for all our sins past pres future and rose to give us eternal LIFE and whoever believes in him will have LIFE . Of course this is just a general description and there is much more to it than that . The law is obsolete and we are free ! We dont have to do anything just rest 'he already did it all for us !

    I didn't realize until a few days ago that you have Zeitgeist veiws. I learned more about what Zeitgeist beleive and now I understand you and your blogs and your friends blogs better . I have nothing against you and your beleifs .So I will be on my way . I feel pretty good .I think god used me here somehow and I got to correspond with the famous "MONEYLESS MAN !"

  59. Ben ,
    Just so you know . I am an outcast to all the christian denominations also . I have been called a hieratic and lots of other names . ,But I realy beleive in the message of pure grace . I have read it in the bible for myself . I know that you probably have Zeitgeist veiws like your friend daniel and beleive that the bible is all made up . Thats fine thats your choice Im cool with that . Im not trying to tell you what to believe ok . You guys are right Im probably pushing people away by telling them certain things .It probably makes people feel uncomfortable . So Im sorry if I did that . So, I will be on my way .

  60. Suele, if I adhere to your advice, that means I have to move to a society that is outcast from the mainstream, right? Or move to the jungle, in extreme.
    I don't mind doing that if it's only me. But as I said, until my son know how to think and choose for himself, I cannot let him blame me for not giving him the opportunity to do so.

    If I understand correctly, What you're doing now is actually akin to Sufism. At least, some aspects of it. That's a road I know full well cannot be shared with anyone but yourself. It's a highly noble stature in Islam, but truly not for everyone. And you don't even have to justify it if it's truly the path you seek.

    Do you even realize this? What you're doing? What you're looking for in life? I'm not criticizing here. Simply asking and reminding.

    There's no such thing as action without consequences in Islam. Especially to others or those closest to you. That's why we have hablum minannas beside hablum minallah. Both must be equally preserved and balanced.

    Remember Rasulullah saw. Even as the ultimate Rasul and Esteemed Guide he was still trading and utilized money as a trader. Not as something to be worshiped or greed about, but merely to naturally place himself among the community in which he lived. He never the one keened on extremity.

  61. Suelo , Jesse ,ben ,piper,UC,
    I almost forgot that if any of you wonder just what I believe, google "The Exchanged Life" and here are some books worth reading - any books by bob george or steve mcvey .There are many others on the subject

    May you all have a wonderful life !

  62. Hi Any #1. It's nice that you've calmed down a little. You keep wanting to put titles onto people, new age and zeitgeist. That last one is so strange, like what has Suelo EVER said that indicates some sort of Zeitgeist belief system, and what is a Zeitgeist belief system anyway? I thought that film largely talked about some conspiracy from the banks to make implantable microchips. I've never even heard Suelo say anything about that. It just seems so strange to keep slapping these fairly meaningless titles onto people. I think Suelo says over and over that a rose is a rose. Who cares what it's called, we were trying to discuss how it looks and interacts with the world. Again, Jesus didn't care much about titles, except for the fact he didn't want people to use them: Matt 23:8-12

    I thought it was a good point earlier how the people who post friendly comments on this blog are by far in the minority of society. I feel blessed to know that there are people out there who can see that the problems of our society lies with our economics. We may not all agree on every last little point, but I feel that's a profound very strong starting point in finding a way forward.

  63. I put a link to Zeitgeist in my blog, because it is an alternative view of a moneyless world, from a different viewpoint than my own.

    Anon, all we can know about you is the spirit you present in these comments: go back & read your own comments & judge for yourself. Again, no rule says you have to read anything, but you might want to read my website before assuming what I think. Listening to others is the first step of the Golden Rule.

  64. Blubeetle -
    I've never said money is evil or that everybody can or has to live moneyless. But I do envision money going obsolete. What I do say is we can't sustain ourselves until we start letting go of stuff & working for money, and I live this way to shout this to the world! Sufis (Faqirs) model the just world. Have faith, let go & share your possessions as Allah asks of you. Rather than discount Possibility, do what you know you can do (Allah asks no more of anybody than they can handle, as the Quran states), and what seems impossible becomes possible. Money will go obsolete if everybody follows the most basic tenets of their own religion.

  65. Daniel ,
    Listening goes both ways . Who here has listend to me? My comments have been met with accusations . I have been accused of dishing out "pop" Chrisianity ,shitting on the golden rule .Told that 100% forgiveness is false doctrine . I have been labeled and much more . All the things that you preach against you do yourself .
    I challenge you to do a study on the finality of the cross .
    I challenge you to do a study on gods unconditional love .
    I challenge you to do a study on the new covenant and what it meens for people today .
    I challenge you to do a study on the law from a new covenant premise .
    The books I mentioned above will give you a good base for your study of the bible .

    It has been pretty cool to correspond with the famous "money less man . I still haven't tryed dumpster diving yet , I have 2 fears 1- Getting sick from eating something bad and 2- Getting in trouble .

    Ok I will say it for like the 4th time .I'll be on my way .LOL .

  66. Glad to find more fresh Suelo to read and live vicariously.

    I was raised Christian and have respect for that way, but it was not the path for me. I tried reading the Quran, but couldn't really resonate with it. The religious truth that works best for me is in my daily empirical experience, whether physical or astral. I experience the "word" of an artist through his or her art. So I believe the universal Creator's book is in the language of creation itself. And so, what is the everyday dialogue between Creator and creature? Opportunity and choice.

    And if other disagree? Who am I to say what other people experiencing other lives should believe?

    Some say it is written that there is one absolute truth, one good path for all.

    And yet I have witnessed benevolent people from every religious way. I have seen with my own eyes that there are many good paths.

    What can I do with a book, if it disagrees with my personal experience? Throw it away. For if it is true, then I am foolish to trust my eyes to read it, or my ears to hear it read. If it is false, then I should wisely reject it.

  67. I would like to lend my best wishes to Suelo for what he is doing. I have to say that he has been a source of inspiration to me in his efforts to live without money, and his success in that regard for so long now. The more I hear of Suelo's philosophy in relation to all of this (i.e. an end to the debt economy and a move toward more gifts) the more "Christian" it sounds.

    Good work, Suelo!

  68. Christianity has it's "prosperity" doctrine and the New Age Movement has it's "law of attraction". Regardless of one's philosophical views it must be noted that the love of money is the root of all evil.

  69. Ben ,
    Your right! Alot of them christian preachers teach the prosperity gospel . That is a totaly false doctrine . The bible says that the people who teach that are of perverted mind . I teach the truth that Its all what JESUS did and none of what we do . JESUS took away the sins of the whole world once and for all forever! and then rose to give us eternal LIFE . and that who ever believes in him will have LIFE .

    I used to believe in the law of attraction for 7 years . I read lots of new age books and practiced meditation and all that junk . Then I met JESUS Its the best ever that has ever happened to me. I don't have to follow a bunch of rules . I don't have to work for my salvation Its already mine . I can just be with him . Thats what god wants more than anything .for me to have relationship with with him !

    Many "christians" who don't understand the truth often try to hammer people with the law and keep people in bondage , But JESUS came to set us free from all those things . He loves us with an infinite love . Nothing we could ever do would ever make him turn his back on us NOTHING !

  70. Daniel, I think you have to realise that your lifestyle is what God has called you to. However, its not what others are called to and if they attempted it, would end up dead.

    You were given the talents and education to be able to know how to live resourcefully without the use of money. Not everyone has this talent, nor would it be wise to force it on one's own children. Its a life choice they would have to make when they are old enough and have enough wisdom and knowledge to know how.

    Mother Teresa never told anyone that they were to live as she did, but rather, to follow their own calling and to see the poor around them.

    The poor can me those lacking basic material needs, or even the rich man driving a cadillac who is so spiritually poor, he lives in misery despite all he has.

    Myself, I'm called more towards Thoreau style of simple living than living in a cave and eating out of dumpsters.

    But that's what I'm called to and I don't expect others to follow me.

  71. I think everybody would like to feel like they're the exception to a higher calling. I personally feel we're all 'called' to be as close to our ideals as humanly possible. I feel the truth is that we usually just settle for something a little easier, and in some cases something a lot easier. I feel it's between the individual and God, but more often then not, we're usually pretty well compromised.

    I think one reason why people like Suelo get such a strong reaction from so many people is because his mere existence reminds us that it IS possible, that we really CAN live a life without money, or whatever it is that touches us deeply about the fact that he's rejected the traditional rat race. If there was no one doing it, no reminder, then it'd be easier to just say "oh well, it's not possible, so I don't have to try that hard myself." It ups the ante. It raises the stakes. The spiritual grading curve for humanity is set that much higher, and many people don't like that, while others find curious inspiration and seek towards greater heights themselves.

  72. I would like to know more about how he does it in detail, foraging, tips, tricks, stuff like that.

  73. I have learned to admire Suelo's original ideas and courage to live his livestyle, because creativity and courage are important values for me. Unfortunately, I have found he has a tyranical tendency in his thinking and living.

    He claims people should not judge others, but he does it himself all the time. Anyone who thinks different than he does is given a negative label by Suelo.

    Not to mention he is naive enough to believe the whole world could function as he wishes it to do. Moneyless living might be possible, but not in the way he assumes it to be.

    On a positive note, Suelo can be a good example to other people to be wiser on the use of resources.

    Or not... because it could also encourage hypocrisy, hate and envy. (Not to mention double standards).

  74. Hey, Migs back ! Mig ,you always have the words and vocab to say what I myself would like to say . Thanks for your voice !

  75. Anonymous,

    We get it already. Jebuz is your savior and you're more "fulfilled" worshiping his ego than you did being involved in the new age movement. You act like we haven't heard all this before. The United States is a majority Christian country and being that I'm in the Bible Belt most people are obsessed with fundamentalist christian dogma down here. It's nothing new. If you enjoy adhering to a concept of God that burns people who aren't Christian then that's your prerogative.

    I would likewise be interested in knowing the details of how Suelo does it - foraging, tips, tricks of the trade,and etc. I admire anyone who has rejected the money system and is no longer a wage slave. If only people en mass could awaken to the harsh reality that money is nothing more than a collective illusion.


    The whole world COULD function as Suelo envisions. It would manifest into something similar to the ideals of what is currently refereed to as a resource based economy. I for one would welcome such a system with open arms. This corrupt capitalist based system is utterly enslaving and it's sick. Our world is heading for the worst depression ever and it's because of greed. We desperately need something better and a libertarian based system (like that of Ron Paul) wouldn't be an improvement. It would be worse. It allows the rich tyrants who own everything to have free reign and the untold environmental damage would be horrifying much less the suffering of the common people would be that much worse.

  76. Miguel ,
    Could you imaging having to deal with a bunch of "suelo's" all your life? . double standards ,hypocrisy ,self rightiousness ,NWO world religion , Micro management . Would the "suelo world" realy be all that great ? I think you are right about his tyranical tendency.

    Read through his blog and you can see how hypocritical and judgemental he is . not to mention his double standards .

    He also post The Zeitgeist Movement here on his blog . He says its to show a different veiw of a moneyless world ,but he claims to believe in jesus .what kind of person who claims to beleive in jesus would have anything to do with an organization that believes the bible was made up?

    I think just because he has a little "higher education" that he thinks he knows it all .But his comments ,judgements, lables , Tell a different story . You will know them by their fruit .

    Don't get me wrong . I like daniel.Eveyone has their flaws including me . He can do what he want's this is his blog . Its hard to believe that he opens it up to others opposing opinions .I own my blog, My blog is like my home if some opinionated jerk cam into my home I would throw his ass out !

  77. Gosh, I can't believe this poster above can't recognize their own hypocrisy, I guess it's just easier for them to pass their own actions on Suelo (it's called projecting). It's a complete contradiction to say Suelo is a tyrant when he lets pretty much anyone freely express their views here. That's called 'freedom of speech' not tyranny. That poster above then goes on to tell how tyrannical THEY are on their blog. Now THAT'S a double standard.

    I don't understand what's hypocritical about Suelo saying "hey money causes problems, I'm going to live with out it." And then he goes out and does it. That seems pretty consistent to me. Sure anyone with ANY sense of idealism will at some point fail miserably to match up to their ideals. That's not hypocrisy, it's reality. People start being hypocrites when they refuse to admit to their own downfalls and then prefer to just blame other people for their problems.

    I see no evidence for Suelo's "double standards." To me, that's an irrational claim which lacks foundation.

  78. People start being hypocrites when they refuse to admit to their own downfalls and then prefer to just blame other people for their problems.

    You just descibed suelo perfectly ! good job !

  79. Piper,
    I checked out your blog and its pretty cool that you walked the PCT,but one thing, you come across as being so self centered . me me me IIIIIIIIII me me me me IIIIIIIIII me me me IIIIII me me me IIIIIII . Just my opinion .

  80. Wow, it's so weird that people think Suelo is hypocritical, self-righteous, know-it-all, judgmental, etc. Reading these comments, it is so clear that people see, read, and experience things the way they want to, not the way things are in reality. Suelo, in reality, is entirely consistent with his beliefs expressed through his statements, interactions, and actions, open to and accepting of others no matter what their beliefs, state of mind, position in life, etc., and inspiringly nonjudgmental. Perhaps those of you who see Suelo in a negative light or who wish to learn how he lives in detail, should schedule a trip to Moab to meet him. That is precisely what I did - I had to see and experience the truth of the man before judging. You will be surprised and delighted!

  81. Carolyn,
    All I can go by is the responses from suelo to my comments . Suelo has judged me ,came across as self rightious , labeled me , accused me etc, just for sharing my beliefs of the DBR of JESUS . That realy does not bother me because we are all human .

    I would like to meet Daniel someday .Does he like to talk about simple living ,gardening ,and raising animals for food ,foraging ? If he does he's my kind of guy .

  82. Suelo has created a solid image, no doubt. And he also has profited on the ambivalent relation of most people to money and the capitalist system.

    Furthermore, he benefits of the simplistic way of thinking of most people, who see everything as black or white. Money he has labeled as evil and himself as good. So it's not surprising to find many people finding that easy to understand.

    To believe Suelo is right, in the absolute sense, is ignorant. As is to believe anything he says as the final truth.

    Finally, it's wise to admit the worst atrocities and dictatorships have been created by people who use simplistic thinking to fool the masses.

  83. Miguel,

    You talk about stupid people being taken advantage of by Suelo because they only think in simplistic black and whites. People that understand Suelo's ideology think a lot more deeply about these issues than those folk that think "oh he's living without money, that means he's mooching off us hard working wage slaves." To me, that's a pretty good example of lazy thinking, or shall I say unfairly judgmental thinking.

    If you take the time to read the post Suelo actually made, you'll see he's taking an interest in Islam, something which almost no one except Muslims will touch now a days. Why? Because he's sees there's some good in there. Is that black and white? No, that's incredibly grey. He does that with all religions, because he doesn't view spirituality as black and white, there's many shades of grey. However, just because someone makes a stand on key issues and labels them as the most important issues which are destroying our society doesn't mean they are simplistic absolutists.

    Miguel, YOU'RE the one making absolute statements. You said: "To believe Suelo is right, in the absolute sense, is ignorant" Of COURSE it's ignorant to believe ANYONE absolutely. Who's doing that? Is that the real issue being discussed here or just more irrational claims that don't mean anything?

    Miguel said: "Finally, it's wise to admit the worst atrocities and dictatorships have been created by people who use simplistic thinking to fool the masses."

    Uhh...sure...we can say that, how about this quote: "Every nation in every region now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."
    George W. Bush, September 20, 2001

    By studying Islam and seeing it's benefits, Suelo is shattering this simplistic absolutist way of thinking (which often times leads to prejudice against Muslims and Muslim countries.)

  84. Here's another quote from Miguel:

    "Money he has labeled as evil and himself as good."

    Show me, where has Suelo anywhere on this blog, on his website, or in person said these things. Because Suelo has taken a stand against the greed that money often times causes you assume he's saying it's evil and that he's 'good'. That logic is like someone coming along and saying that eating babies is wrong. Then someone else comes along and says, you're saying that eating is wrong and you think you're SO holy, don't you?!

    The logic doesn't compute, unless you have a serious prejudice, and an overly simplistic way of thinking.

  85. Wow, I didn't know greed and eating babies were the same thing.

    Now, I know.

  86. hi Miguel, needless to say, they're not the same thing. I know I used a shocking example, however, they're really not all that different. Greed causes millions of children to die each year from malnutrition. However, I assume you're being factitious as we both know I was just using your logic and applying it to an unrelated situation. However, you still didn't address anything else I said. I guess it's easier to just not think about it and chalk it up to over simplistic statements again?

  87. I'm not sure you've been reading these comments for very long, Jesse. For those who've been with this blog a long time, you'll know Miguel argues for the sake of arguing, &, as with the anonymous naysayers, you'll go away in frustration if you're expecting any kind of rational resolution.

  88. It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

  89. Suelo, you are wrong. I don't argue for the sake of arguing. Only a Socrates or a sophist could do that. Sorry, but I am not that smart or wise yet.

    I was stating your shortcomings that you try so hard to hide.

    To me it's clear you are afraid of your dark side and to compensate you pretend to be more ethical than other people.

    That's all.

  90. Miquel,

    Since when has Suelo come across as more ethical than any of us? He's NEVER given me that impression. I think you have contempt for thim because you disagree with his philosophy. Perhaps you're just jealous of the fact that the man isn't some wage slave and had the balls to do the right thing and walk away from it all. He continues to live in the world BUT without being of the world. This is something that the Bible speaks of but I've never known anyone to actually do it until now.

    Suelo embodies the message of Christ better than any Christian I've ever met and yet he doesn't make the claim to be of any particular philosophy. What does that say about those claiming to be "saved" and "born again"?

  91. Not all people who work for money are wage slaves, in fact some of them work for the fun of it, while money being secondary.

    Also, in the capitalist system you can also create your own job (autonomous) or as an entrepreneur it's possible to create jobs for others.

    I bet it's only failures who get interested in Suelo's philosophy to justify their incompetence.

  92. That would explain why YOUR here, Mig!

  93. suelo says -as with the anonymous naysayers, you'll go away in frustration if you're expecting any kind of rational resolution.

    You will know them by their fruit . The above shows how closed minded, tyranical,and pompous suelo is .

    That of course is just my opinion .

  94. If suelo was the real deal He wouldn't say a word . You will know them by their fruit . I have a sneaky suspicion that suelo is a puppet for someone . Who could that be ?

  95. @ Nate LOL! I haven't been around long on this but I knew Migs like to argue against what you do, Suelo. However, it seems that Miguel doesn't even argue. In an argument, one side says something, and then the other side makes a counter point. So far Miguel's approach seems to be just one unfounded claim after another. When I try to address his statements, he just ignores them and makes another unfounded claim. People that don't have any rational arguments for their case often times like to change the subject or ignore the counter points.

    I don't mind an argument, as they can help clear up the issues, even if neither side changes. Truth can often times be found on both sides, and I like to hear what other people have to say against what I believe, as long as it's done in dialogue. It helps me figure out what it is I really believe. But I guess you normally just ignore Miguel. I may try and do the same for now. Otherwise it's like arguing with the television, except I can't even change the channel! =)

  96. Oh that religious Any is back.

    Quote: "If suelo was the real deal He wouldn't say a word . You will know them by their fruit . I have a sneaky suspicion that suelo is a puppet for someone . Who could that be ?"

    Heyy....I think you're right!! Maybe he's working for the CIA, nah...we'd figure that out too easily, I think he's actually a military clone produced for the mere purpose of rounding up all the radicals together so they could put them in a concentration camp! Suelo is a clone! Suelo is a clone! Or an alien...

  97. Jesse , LOL ,LOL . I am laughing my ass off LOL . Maby I went a bit overboard with the puppet thing .LOL .

  98. Its true though ,If suelo was the real deal He wouldn't say a word.

  99. Hey Any, I'm glad you found some humor in me. It's nice to share a laugh. It's warming for the heart. Peace!

  100. jesse,

    Here goes your response, so you can see I can have an dialogue.

    "hi Miguel, needless to say, they're not the same thing."

    Hi jesse, I agree they are not the same thing, but I don't think that's needless to say. It sounds too closed minded for me.

    "I know I used a shocking example, however, they're really not all that different. Greed causes millions of children to die each year from malnutrition."

    Greed is an essential aspect of the human condition, no matter how much idealists want to create a perfect world. If you did read a little of realist economics you will understand the whole world runs on greed and selfishness.

    I believe most of the good things in life are done on greed alone, you can also find a similar theory if you care to read Adam Smith and his theory of the invisible hand.

    It's a well known fact that altruists tend to speak a lot of words and do very little of actual value.

    Not to say that altruism or selfless service is wrong, because it has it's place. But it's wise to notice all types of altruism have their explicit and implicit motivations (some of them obscure and even selfish).

    Finally, altruism has also been used to enslave mankind to absurd religions, goverments and even big corporations.

    "However, I assume you're being factitious as we both know I was just using your logic and applying it to an unrelated situation."

    I see you are not very original and prefer to imitate other people. Needless to say, it's not a wise think to do.

    "However, you still didn't address anything else I said. I guess it's easier to just not think about it and chalk it up to over simplistic statements again?"

    No, it just takes time to prepare a careful response. Also, I am not sure if you are going to do the effort of considering my views in a serious and fair way.

  101. Correction:

    "If you visit his site you will see many quotes from famous people who consider money or posessions as inherently evil."

    Famous people who died a long time ago and considered money as evil.

  102. Wow, my previous comment was deleted. Good move, Suelo!.

  103. Hi wrote a response to Miguel and it didn't make it either. It could be that there's a limit to how long we can make a post or how many posts this thread will allow. Suelo is incredibly unlikely to delete any posts. He's too democratic and non-judgmental in that way.

  104. "Also, in the capitalist system you can also create your own job (autonomous) or as an entrepreneur it's possible to create jobs for others."

    That might've been true 50 some odd years ago but nowadays the average job no longer pays a sustaining wage. It takes everything you make just to barely put a roof over your head and keep food on the table much less have anything left over. You can't afford to marry or to save either. That's over with. This is "greatness" capitalism has given us. Yeeehaw! Praise tha lawd! Work hard and never make ends meet BUT be appreciative for whatcha got. lol Yeah right! what a joke.

  105. Ben ,
    What planet do you live on mister flying saucer ? I know a plumber who makes well over 200K a year .I know of people who own their own business in many types of trades who have no problem making more than enough money !They work hard ! Your just jeolous cuz you choose to be homeless are lazy or you have to many problems to be able to make things happen for yourself . That comment changed my opinion about you .

  106. A problem in the capitalist system is that if you don't have good business ability, you are at a disadvantage to other people.

    Anyway it's a system that works if it's well regulated. Claiming it doesn't work or it's evil, it's just plain nonsense.

    It's the only system that guarantees private property and freedom of speech.

    Try to get those in a socialist country.

  107. jesse said...
    How come no one is stepping in and calling that Any above judgemental?

    "Your just jeolous cuz you choose to be homeless are lazy or you have to many problems to be able to make things happen for yourself ."

    Wow, that's harsh. There's only three options you're giving Ben, hey? That's it, no other POSSIBILITY for Ben's beliefs? Sounds pretty tyrannical to me. Personally, I don't even KNOW anyone who makes 200k a year, it just goes to show how ridiculously rich you are to even know people that make that much money. Anyway, I agree with some of what you say, though, being poor by American standards is still upper middle class in most countries. Even most homeless people here live luxuriously compared to most people in the world...3 meals a day and all.

    Miguel, who's talking about capitalism? Greed transcends ALL forms of government. There are no guarantees in any government. When was the last time you actually tried exercising your freedom of speech in your respective capitalist country (even China allows protest demonstrations)? It's getting very difficult to do that when all the public spaces become increasingly privatized. Whatever cloak the political system is that you adhere to wears, there are still people at the top, and at the bottom, who are doing whatever they can to get as big a piece of the cake as they can for themselves. They'll do whatever it takes to get it too. That's the real issue: greed. Saying you are pro-capitalist or pro-communist is like saying you're Buddhist or Christian, actions speak louder than words. Both capitalist and communist countries largely ignore many of their basic principles. Just my thoughts anyway. I won't be here much next week, so don't worry, you can won't hear much from me for a little while.

  108. Jesse ,
    Mabye Im wrong ,but In my lfetime I have seen plenty of jealous people like ben spout off just like he did in his post .I have also been treated very badly (hated,ostrisized,verbaly abused and more) by jealous people like ben just because I grew up privilaged .Turns out that they where jealous because they wher lazy,or had to many problems and just didn't have what its takes to start a business and become successful. What it comes down to with many people is that when they tried and failed to be successful they blame and become very bitter .

  109. Hi Any, I don't doubt some people have been jealous about your wealth, many people that aren't wealthy wish they were. However, it did seem you were very quick to judge Ben because he said that there were many poor people in America. Simply because you have said that you grew up privileged, I'm going to guess you haven't had much contact with many Americans who actually are struggling to make ends meet. It's a callous attitude that many rich have that the poor are poor simply because they're lazy. In many cases that may be true, but in many cases, they haven't had the education or opportunities to learn how to get rich. It's like I build a Ferrari and a Pinto and the Ferrari wins all the races. It's possible that the owner of the Pinto can replace the engine and make it run like a serious champ, but it's obviously much easier for the person with the Ferrari to win all the races simply because they have such a greater advantage.

    If you really want to know what life is like for the lower class in America, I suggest you actually spend time with them and get to know their lives. It's not so black and white as how you've painted it.

  110. Jesse ,
    See how we are, you where quick to judge me to .

    I have been on both sides of the fence .

    I grew up in a family that was not middle class ,But way above poor . My father was a good business man and did well ,but not rich . I didn't have all the best stuff ,but I was well taken care of and a little spoiled as a child .When I hit my teen years My parents made me work for everything I wanted . People thought we where rich and some treated me very bad . just about the time I graduated from high school my father lost his business due to competition from forein countrys and new product competition . He was then poor . I went on my own in the world and have never had success like my father did . I live below the poverty line and have for most of my life . My father was very good at making things happen(And a hard worker ) he started a few very small businesses and was able recover he bought a small peice of land and build a small home.

    I am still dirt poor , I never had the drive and ambition to be successful like my father . So you see Im not what you thought .

  111. I've challenged anonymous commentators over & over to focus on Jesus' basic teachings, and, without fail, you divert attention away from them. I don't challenge Miguel on this. He doesn't claim to be Christian and he's already stated many times he doesn't agree with Jesus, which is more honest, not hypocritical. Plus, he's willing to step out of anonymous darkness. Kind of like AA, the first step to believing Jesus is admitting you don't, because that's Truth.

    Any, since you avoid Jesus' teachings like the plague, & use Apostle Paul to do so, in past comments I dared you (or whatever Any quoted Ephesians 2:8-9) to quote & post the next verse, Ephesians 2:10, since the commenter him/herself stated it must be read in context!! No response. Just more steering away from the subject.

    I do wonder why I do need say anything since it's already basic in your Bible. If you don't listen to your own Jesus, why would you listen to me for repeating Jesus?

    I grew up in classic fundamentalism which believes Jesus' teachings were for some "other" dispensation, that we were "forgiven" by his death & resurrection. So it was considered sin to practice what Jesus said, because it wasn't
    "the Gospel"! This seems absurd to a "non-Christian", but burying Jesus' teachings is perfectly logical to a fundamentalist. That's pop Christianity, the wide and easy path, that, like Pharisee-ism, "forgives" self & condemns everybody else, looks for antichrist everywhere but in the mirror! But the books of James and 1 John threw a wrench on our nice little theology, because they were written for "this dispensation"!

    So, Any, I'll pose yet another challenge & see if you finally take it: quote anything from James about the rich. It'll be even more impressive if you throw in one about works & faith. And counter it with Eph 2:8-9 if you like, WITH verse 10. If I quote it, you would call me judgmental. You, Any, are not arguing with me, you're arguing with your own Jesus.

    I say nothing new in this website, nothing original. If, in Jesus' parable of the Rich Man & Lazarus, the Rich Man was without excuse because he had Moses, how much more you who have Jesus' clear teachings? You know exactly what I'm talking about.

    I could be a total hypocrite myself, worthy of your attack, but judge for yourself whether or not the words I speak are true.

  112. "I am still dirt poor , I never had the drive and ambition to be successful like my father"

    So what's the problem then? What on earth are you fighting against in these comments? Are you content with your lot or not? Do you see the Power in "poverty"?

  113. "Ben ,
    What planet do you live on mister flying saucer ? I know a plumber who makes well over 200K a year .I know of people who own their own business in many types of trades who have no problem making more than enough money !They work hard ! Your just jeolous cuz you choose to be homeless are lazy or you have to many problems to be able to make things happen for yourself . That comment changed my opinion about you ."

    Like your opinion of me holds any weight. lol You assume I'm homeless which I'm not. You assume I'm lazy too -whatever that means. You don't even know me. For all you know I might be working two full time jobs to support myself and my dying mother BUT of course none of that even matters because in your HOLY eyes I'm just some homeless and lazy person who's jealous of those more fortunate than me. Yehaw! Praise Jebuz!

    If you were born poor and didn't have the support system you currently have (financial and otherwise) you'd more than likely be singing a different tune. In fact you'd rarely thing about this sort of thing at all because you'd be too busy slaving your ass off 12 hours (or more) a day 7 days a week just to keep yourself from becoming homeless.

    Whether you want to accept it or not - America's hey days are over with. We're in the worst economy since the last great depression and it's not limited to the housing crunch either. Most of our manufacturing jobs are gone. Not everyone is meant to be a doctor,lawyer,or an engineer but that shouldn't mean they have to live far below the poverty level. To expect those who've never suffered to understand is like expecting someone who's blind to know what color and shape is.

  114. "I am still dirt poor, I never had the drive and ambition to be successful like my father . So you see Im not what you thought ."

    Maybe you are afraid of being better than your father. Or perhaps you have different goals in life besides economic success.

    Who knows?.

  115. Miguel ,
    I tryed for many years to fill my fathers shoes. The main reason he was succesful is that he had an incredible work ethic . I do to ,but have not applied it .

    Ben ,
    Hey , I appologize for assuming things .Just so you know I have been through plenty of hard times . I came inches from becoming homeless 3 times . Two times I recoverd on my own and one other time someone I know included me in on a business deal(they didn't have to) that helped me get back on my feet .

    I know all about the economy and jobs being gone .Im right there with ya. I do however believe that one can start a business and make a decent living . Its the only way . For how long ? who knows . I know it can be done because I know people who do it . It takes a lot of hard work .

  116. Suelo ,
    No im not content . I don't like poverty . I wan't to make at least 30 K a year . I don't want to sleep in a cold tent with a sleeping pad .I like having real a roof over my head and a warm comfortable bed to sleep in .

    One day I will unleash my work ethic start a business and make more than enough to live .

  117. Short Film: In the Eye of the Whale

    The eye is an open nerve connected to our brain.

    Our minds are connected with the eye.

    People often think I'm crazy. I've sold my car. I've basically almost been homeless. I've lived in a fifth wheel for 4 years and eventually sold that to fund field work.

    I look at those as wonderful opportunities. I'm terribly grateful to have had a car, that I could sell, that would fund a month in the field.

    That's how I want to effect our collective consciousness.

    That's one of the reasons why I tend to have very little attachment to my own individual identity or even my mortality. I really am interested in making this contribution.

    -Bryant Austin


    Materialism is often the biggest obstacle to reaching our full potential.

  118. "I tryed for many years to fill my fathers shoes. The main reason he was succesful is that he had an incredible work ethic . I do to ,but have not applied it ."

    Yes, that's your problem. Instead of filling your father's shoes, you should have been yourself.

    "No im not content . I don't like poverty . I wan't to make at least 30 K a year . I don't want to sleep in a cold tent with a sleeping pad .I like having real a roof over my head and a warm comfortable bed to sleep in ."

    Good to hear that.

    "One day I will unleash my work ethic start a business and make more than enough to live ."

    Ok, but make sure it's your work ethic and not somebody else's.

  119. Mig, If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

  120. Yes, that's my point. Interacting with people who think differently than you do, it's the first step to develop an open mind.

    Definition of Rigid Thinking

    I am going to close with a quote from Marcel Duchamp:

    "I force myself to contradict myself in order to avoid conforming to my own taste."

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  122. Anonymous,

    It's not good to jump to conclusions. However, we've all been "guilty" of doing it from time to time. Thanks for the apology though. I appreciate it. Still, it's pretty obvious to me that capitalism has run it's course and isn't beneficial to mankind as a whole.

    As time marches forward the ability for a man to earn enough to support himself (much less a family) is becoming increasingly difficult and downright impossible for a growing percentage of people. There's a better way and we have all the resources available to do it. It might take a paradigm shift in consciousness in order for it to be implemented BUT it's possible.

  123. I prefer to be open minded to many possibilities than just discarding capitalism out of hand. In my view, anything can work, depending how you use it and in what context.

    Capitalism, in contrast to popular opinion, is not only for dinosaurs, old fasioned people or the old rich.

    At the contrary, capitalism is adaptable and constantly replaces the old with the new. Some people even blame this as a shortcoming, calling it "evil", but it's a actually an strenght, because it make it sustainable for long periods of time.

    It's better to get used to capitalism, because I am sure we are going to witness it's continuity for many more decades to come.

  124. I think miguel is right . There is always going to be a need for goods and sevices And the systems that is in place is favored by most . In my opinion it would take a catastrophic event of the whole world to change it .and even then it may not change .

  125. I don't agree with the Zeitgeist that the bible was made up ,but I do agree with them that everyone should have free access to basic needs like land ,building shelter ,water. Its a god given right ! Or is it ?

    Slaves- History tells us that america is the only free country that ever was . Before, there was no such thing as a free country and people wher owned by govenments and the rich and had no rights .

    My point is -thats just the way it is ,get used to it . Its the way its always been since the dawn of time . There has always been powerful and there has always been slaves

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  127. Tell me or anyone else to just "get used to it" is do different than telling blacks and other minorities to just "get used to" being second class citizens or being denied the right to vote or sit in the front of the bus. What you're saying is that we should just accept being slaves and being screwed over by the power elite. lol That's bullshit and you know it too.

    Capitalism is at odds with living free and having one's needs met. Money is an illusion that enslaves the masses. This is why the media and the system in general promotes it with such an intensity. They don't want people realizing it's all a farce used to keep the masses working their butts off while barely making ends meet. I agree with Suelo. A healthy society disregards such mirages and works together as one the way Jesus recommended.

  128. People said we'd never be able to fly but we did. People said we'd never go to the moon but we did. People said women and minorities would never be allowed to vote or hold public offices but they now they do. Stop saying it can't be done. That's crap. We need a better system than the one we currently have now. Ben's right. Capitalism sucks the very life outta ya!

  129. Ben ,
    My point is ,why focus on what will never change ? Sure ,things might change a little ,but ther will always be rulers even at the local level ,thats just the way it is and always has been . I say "get used to it " because why fight against something that will never be changed 100% ? About all we can do it put our vote in let our voice be heard . thats the way our system works.

    A russian guy taught me that a while back . We were talking about the same thing . He said "we can't focus on what "they" do because it steals your joy ,robs you of precious life." He knows since he grew up in russia where things wer much worse .

    I just thank god that I have the freedom I do living here .Im glad that my time here on earth is now instead of 500 years ago or even 200 years ago .

    My plan is to enjoy today and every day that I have here no matter if things change or not, no matter if I change or not . Think I will go cook some breakfast! some eggs and toast with a couple spoonfulls of home made blackberry jam mmmm .

  130. Any wrote:
    "My point is -thats just the way it is ,get used to it . Its the way its always been since the dawn of time . There has always been powerful and there has always been slaves"

    This is why I included the essay about the Hadza in my website ("A Culture Living Abundantly Without Money Today"), to refute the above myth.

    But I can see what you mean, Any: it is true it's the way it's always been since the dawn of commercial civilization, and we in our idolatry think commercialism is God Eternal, always has been, always will be. But nobody has ever gotten used to it and nobody ever can get used to it. Ever! This is why the Jesus you talk about came along, to bring Good News that we can stop slaving for Mammon and return to Faith in Natural Provision. It's spelled out in the Sermon on the Mount.

    I appreciate your honesty that you want to make at least 30K/year. I'm no saint - I know what it's like to desire what I don't have. But if we examine ourselves, we realize our suffering is NOT from living without 30k/year, but our suffering comes from wishing to make 30k (Coveting), rather than finding perfect Contentment, Perfect Wealth, Perfect Power, with what you have Right Here, Right Now. "I have learned that in whatever state I am in, therein to be content." That's the True Meaning of Accepting What Can Never Be Changed, accepting the Eternal!

    Any, you are in a rare position and have the opportunity of a lifetime to tap into this Power, so why sacrifice it for a paltry 30k??? Why do the Esau sacrifice of your Eternal Inheritance for a little bowl of porridge? Why gain the whole world and lose your soul? Why temporarily chase the Vapor of 30k when you can have the Entire Universe Secure Right Now?

  131. "My plan is to enjoy today and every day that I have here no matter if things change or not, no matter if I change or not ."

    Now that's the part of what you say that I say Amen to!

  132. Suelo,
    In many ways I am content . I have no health insurance ,im content.99 % of my clothes have holes and about worn out ,im content. etc,I could be content with just about anything ,but like I said I just can't be content sleeping outside in a cold tent on a hard ground .Thats why I want to make money so that I can secure a roof over my head . I also enjoy a few hobbies that I could not do If I lived in a tent .

    I know that we have a difference veiw on this and I don't want to argue with you about it. I beleive
    Eternal "life " Is given by believing in JESUS .So Im not worried about not having eteral life ,I aready have it . Its nothing I done ,but all what he did .

  133. Daniel,
    I agree , Anynone can escape the capitalist system .You and the hazda are proof ,but can we escape all slavery ? In some countrys people have no rights at all and are forced into slavery .

  134. Some people like Suelo can escape Capitalism, but most don't. It's not realistic, if you don't have business skills, better develop them.

    I believe you can be content with what you have now and also plan for a future. There is no contradiction in that for me.

  135. Hi Daniel,

    I've been reading the archives of your blog and your site, and I must say that your concept...makes sense. As of late I had my own world come crashing to the ground around the whole issue of issue know... money...but....I think I've woken up a better person because of it. And my life has only just begun- I'm only 21, about to be 22 in a few weeks!

    I suppose I could relate it to Hermann Hesse's Siddhartha- like Siddhartha, I went down to the river (bayou), and contemplated materialism, greed, and the thought that I 'owe' somebody else some imaginary number....ridiculous.

    Will continue to watch your blog...and actually, maybe, I think you've inspired me to start along this path as well. If you're in one spot this summer- I might come visit with you for a long while. To watch, and learn, and such... But for now I'll just continue to watch your blog.

    Take care.

  136. After reading through the recent comments it's become quite apparent that more people are realizing that this money based system is stiff-ling. People know deep down inside that something is seriously flawed with our current system. Suelo is one of many pioneers in perhaps a journey that will lead us out of the darkness of the debt system into a world where people work together and help one another and don't rely on "money" for their sustenance. If more people start to dream this same dream then eventually it'll take root.

  137. For me I consider it somewhat of a necessity. As part of the generation that is expected to live a much lower standard of living thanks to debt, capitalism, and globalization....I figure learning self-sufficiency and survivalism techniques are going to be essential for the future.

    I figure it might be something that agrees with me so long as I have a good teacher to show me the ropes. Might also help bring back some of the creativity and happiness I've lost in recent times too- I used to enjoy my art until money and value started to get attached to it- and I'd like to get back to that point. I mean, go find a place with free paper, then go to a hotel or some place with free pencils and pens...hey...ART.

    (and who knows, maybe when I'm dead and gone, all the greedy hyenas can take my art and assign a value to it and get rich. PFFT.)

  138. Ben, there is something seriously flawed with ANY system. Not just the one you dislike most.

  139. I actually agree with Miguel here, which is why life works best when we give up our contrived systems ("works") and run from our instinctual hearts ("grace"), becoming a part of the Universal System existing for zillions of years automatically before we ever came along. If we created a "moneyless system" it would reek as much havoc as "capitalism" or "communism" or "socialism" or whatever religious organization. It's not something to be calculated by us but something already in us & around us to be realized!

    In the mean time, it'd be naive of me to expect everybody to instantly give up money! Work & find contentment under whatever system until you find a window of escape - then go for it! Don't discount any possibility: every living thing starts with an insignificant seed, zygote or crystal molecule. That's called faith!

  140. That's true Suelo. There's no system that's "perfect". There's always room for improvement. However, a system free of capitalism (communism included) would be ideal and probably closer to reaching our goals of becoming a more harmonious society where everyone is able to express themselves in a way that best suits their needs as well as the needs of those around them.

    How exactly this can be done is still a mystery to me BUT I feel it deep down to the core of my being that the answer is starting us in the face and is all around us and awaits to be discovered. I agree. Giving up money overnight isn't practical BUT if it's a gradual process that people willingly choose on their own accord then the sky is the limit. It just takes time but it seems it's already catching on. Everyday I meet more people disenfranchised with the status quo.

  141. Marx thought the same thing... and the result was massacres and dictatorships.

    In my view, it's better to trust the old than try new paths, at least when politics or other important matters are concerned.

  142. Under unbridled capitalism also known as the "free" market you had child labor where children worked 7 days a week at 14 plus hours a day. Many died. This is the free market system for ya!

    Just trusting the old ways,huh? If the people during the early 1960s had their way we'd be doing that same exact thing and black people would be riding at the back of the buses and being treated as second class citizens. Just sticking to the old ways would mean women wouldn't have the right to vote,own property,and hold political office. This is progress,huh? ha! that's a joke.

    The buying power of the average person has been on a downward spiral for some time now with most jobs no longer paying sustainable wages. capitalism is such a great system,huh?

  143. Ben: "Under unbridled capitalism also known as the 'free' market you had child labor where children worked 7 days a week at 14 plus hours a day. Many died. This is the free market system for ya!"

    No, actually the "free market system" has changed a lot for better or worse. Instead of child labor we now have forced schooling.

    Child labor had some advantages for the families of those children and even for the children themselves because instead of wasting their lives on the streets, they did somemthing productive.

    Furthermore, child labor is not an invention of the capitalist system, it existed way back before. And it was a good thing for most families and children.

  144. Ben: "Just trusting the old ways,huh?"

    I didn't say to just do that, because I believe in innovation and changing the rules sometimes.

    Ben: "If the people during the early 1960s had their way we'd be doing that same exact thing and black people would be riding at the back of the buses and being treated as second class citizens."

    Good point, but now we have reverse racism by black people on white people. As we have now reverse gender discrimination by women on men.

    Everything comes at a price.

    Besides, who said the free market encorages racial and gender discrimination?. At the contrary, it's great business to respect racial and gender differences, while discriminating is generally a very bad business idea.

    Expanding your market range is sometimes better than imposing rigid limitations.

    Not to mention it's politically incorrect and even a crime to discriminate on gender or race. So it's not practical for modern businesses to do that.

    Ben: "Just sticking to the old ways would mean women wouldn't have the right to vote,own property,and hold political office."

    Yes, but now we have arrogant, intolerant women who show no respect for men. Not to mention most young women are spoiled and even enjoy making jokes about men or abusing them emotionally and finantially.

    Not to say I don't like such kind of progress, but everything is relative.

    Ben: "This is progress,huh? ha! that's a joke."

    You are right, it's not. But we have to learn to adapt to change, besides the word "progress" can have meany meanings and interpretations.

  145. "The buying power of the average person has been on a downward spiral for some time now with most jobs no longer paying sustainable wages. capitalism is such a great system,huh?"

    Life is cyclical, capitalism is no different. The buying power of the average person is not always the same, it's in constant flux.

    Sometimes it can be high and then low.

  146. What is a sustainable wage?. If you are living beyond your means, no wage can be sustainable.

  147. Islam is the way of LIFE. Islamic education, finance, governance ...etc. all makes us better person & the whole society.

    Study the simple life of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) & his companions..specially Umar (RA) who once said:

    "I am very afraid to be accountable in front of Allah. I swear if a dog is died by hunger at the bank of Farat, Umar will be considered accountable for it in front of Allah. In the night, he used to disguise himself to know about the condition of people.